More 'Audiophile' bullsh*t

[TonyRPH]

Mr_Yogi said:

Well you can't say fairer than that, at least you've tried it

The Cyrus system I heard was: CDXT SE+/ StreamXP -> Mono X300 -> VA Beethoven Concert Grand's, and there was a subtle but definite difference between the streamer and the CD transport.

While my own system is much more modest; SB Touch -> 8XPd qx + PSX -> Kef QX30 Both adding the linear PSU and the toolkit mods made a more substantial difference to the SB than the difference between the CD and streamer in the Cyrus system.

Maybe your DAC is more tolerant of interference?

I've tried with several DACs, and of course there are audible differences between DACs, but that's obviously due to the design of the DAC itself rather than the transport.

In my experience, get the interface between DAC and transport right, and quite a few issues just go away.

Obviously, jitter will always been an issue to a certain extent, but even that is less of a problem than it used to be.

I tend to regard the DAC / transport interface in the same way one would an RF transmitter to antenna - with RF, matching impedance is critical for optimum signal transfer (or SWR for the more techie types).

I would also argue that interface issues would not cause the sound to be cold / warm etc. but rather would cause loss of detail if anything - but that's just imho.

[spikey123]

Heres one, do you leave your cd player switched on all the time? Apparently those in the know say yes. My problem with this is that leds etc have a limited life and surely this is used up whilst they are on but you are not listening to anything? I know there is the arguement of electronics not liking being turned on and off due to surges, but surely if a player is left on things will get warm and breakdown or at least wear out, capacitors for example.

On another note, does anyone know how the Rega Apollo works? Apparently it has huge memory and actually reads the c before deciding which eror correction to apply ( it has 4 types). Mine just refused to play some cds and frittered about on others that played perfectly on my other cd player

[TonyRPH]

spikey123 said:

Heres one, do you leave your cd player switched on all the time? <snip>

I leave my DACs turned on all the time - CD player is switched off.

Generally, leaving a CD player switched on is harmless, however on some makes / models the digital display is known to go dull (Marantz, Kenwood + others).

[qube_TA]

Mr_Yogi said:

qube_TA said:

Cool, so why spend £XXXXX on a super CD transport if the above can read the optical data with 100% accuracy?

Because that will get the PCM file onto a hard disk, not into a DAC.

Edited by Mr_Yogi on Thursday 20th March 19:55

And why does that make the slightest bit of difference?

[Crackie]

spikey123 said:

Heres one, do you leave your cd player switched on all the time? Apparently those in the know say yes. My problem with this is that leds etc have a limited life and surely this is used up whilst they are on but you are not listening to anything? I know there is the arguement of electronics not liking being turned on and off due to surges, but surely if a player is left on things will get warm and breakdown or at least wear out, capacitors for example.

On another note, does anyone know how the Rega Apollo works? Apparently it has huge memory and actually reads the c before deciding which eror correction to apply ( it has 4 types). Mine just refused to play some cds and frittered about on others that played perfectly on my other cd player

In my experience most of the Hi-Fi systems I've owned/heard have sounded significantly better when warm but I don't leave my stuff on all the time. Some also claim that repeated cold - hot - cold cycles cause thermal stress i.e repeated expansion contraction cycles and that this shortens component life but I've not seen enough evidence to be sure.

I think some of the arguments are carry overs from thermionic valve hi-fi days and are not relevant for more recent solid state / surface mount gear.

[qube_TA]

Only found that really makes much of a difference with a power amp. Every one I've ever owned sounds much better after being run for a couple of hours so I tend to leave mine on permanently so they're good to go when needed, never had one fail when being left either.

[probedb]

Funk said:

I can't do this any more.

Anyone who says one digital stream can sound different to the same digital stream from another device is just....well.....like I say, I'm out.

Ditto. Let's face it gizlaroc has invested £1ks in his Meridian system and doesn't want to be told it wasn't worth the money. There's no point arguing with anyone in that sort of situation.

[Riff Raff]

Crackie said:

In my experience most of the Hi-Fi systems I've owned/heard have sounded significantly better when warm but I don't leave my stuff on all the time. Some also claim that repeated cold - hot - cold cycles cause thermal stress i.e repeated expansion contraction cycles and that this shortens component life but I've not seen enough evidence to be sure.

I think some of the arguments are carry overs from thermionic valve hi-fi days and are not relevant for more recent solid state / surface mount gear.

If you run a valve based system - specifically if you run a valve power amp, you don't leave them powered on all the time. For two reasons - first, the life of a power tube is measured in a few thousands of hours, which is less than three months of constant use. Secondly, if something inside a valve amp lets go, it could in a worst case scenario catch fire, in a best case scenario cause real damage to something expensive inside it if you don't power it down sharpish.

Small signal tubes have lives measured in the tens of thousands of hours, and some people leave equipment containing those powered on for long periods of time. Personally, I don't.

Valve stuff normally takes about half an hour to warm up and sound its best, IME anyway.

[gizlaroc]

probedb said:

Funk said:

I can't do this any more.

Anyone who says one digital stream can sound different to the same digital stream from another device is just....well.....like I say, I'm out.

Ditto. Let's face it gizlaroc has invested £1ks in his Meridian system and doesn't want to be told it wasn't worth the money. There's no point arguing with anyone in that sort of situation.

I am not using that any more, I am more than happy with Sonos around the house.



The fact is, some 'transports' now have different filters you can turn on and off to change the sound of them, it isn't any dark arts and it is not disputed by anyone that it works, other than a few people on here it seems.

It does what it says on the tin, changes the sound.

Now, some may say that changing the sound is not a good thing, and that is a different argument, but to say it doesn't change the sound is just plain ignorance.


Edit: Have a read of this to understand how digital files are played back, which is very different to copying them....

http://www.hifi-forum.de/viewthread-59-1683.html

Edited by gizlaroc on Friday 21st March 16:11

[Troubleatmill]

At the end of the day....

Commercial digital media however you want is SACD, CD is crap when compared to 1st gen copies of studio masters of analogue tape.

Having had the opportunity to listen to them ; I immediately gave up spending my hard earned.

There is no comparison.

If you get a chance to do likewise. Do it.

Even if you are a vinyl lover, it is night and day.

[Crackie]

Troubleatmill said:

At the end of the day....

Commercial digital media however you want is SACD, CD is crap when compared to 1st gen copies of studio masters of analogue tape.

Having had the opportunity to listen to them ; I immediately gave up spending my hard earned.

There is no comparison.

If you get a chance to do likewise. Do it.

Even if you are a vinyl lover, it is night and day.

What was your motivation to post that ?? Are you one of the elite whilst mortal plebs have to endure inferior formats.

By the way, do you have a small penis ??

Edited by Crackie on Saturday 22 March 08:32

[gizlaroc]

Crackie said:

What was your motivation to post that ?? Are you one of the elite whilst mortal plebs have to endure inferior formats.

By the way, do you have a small penis ??

I always believe comments like that tell you far more about the person who is saying them than the person they are aiming it at.
You sound a bit a tit there Crackie.

Edited by gizlaroc on Saturday 22 March 08:40

[RealSquirrels]

That's a crisp

[Crackie]

gizlaroc said:

You sound a bit a tit there Crackie.

Fair enough.... could have a point there.

Edited by Crackie on Saturday 22 March 09:57

[Funk]

RealSquirrels said:

That's a crisp

[Countdown]

Given that peoples' "hearing ability" is different and music is subjective (what I like will be different to what you like and vice versa) I don't think it is accurate to say that one piece of equipment is better/worse than another. It's a bit like comparing an M5 to an RS6 or an E63.

[Troubleatmill]

Crackie said:

Troubleatmill said:

At the end of the day....

Commercial digital media however you want is SACD, CD is crap when compared to 1st gen copies of studio masters of analogue tape.

Having had the opportunity to listen to them ; I immediately gave up spending my hard earned.

There is no comparison.

If you get a chance to do likewise. Do it.

Even if you are a vinyl lover, it is night and day.

What was your motivation to post that ?? Are you one of the elite whilst mortal plebs have to endure inferior formats.

By the way, do you have a small penis ??

Edited by Crackie on Saturday 22 March 08:32

Sir. I've never met you - but I'm sure you are a decent bloke.

You can buy 1st gen copies of studio masters. Each tape is eye wateringly expensive though.
I cannot afford it.

But ... and this was my point ( and maybe I didn't make it well - a couple of bottles of red were in play.)

The sound quality is in a completely different league. ( being played on studio machines )

I immediately stopped spending on hifi once I heard it.


I'll try an automotive analogy.
We talk Lambo's, Ferrari's, McLarens etc. All very fast and impressive stuff.
Then you get a shot at driving an F1 car.

The experience just redefines your understanding.
And - it is unattainable.

Hope this helps explain.

Edited by Troubleatmill on Saturday 22 March 17:55

Edited by Troubleatmill on Saturday 22 March 17:56

[gizlaroc]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

let's turn this around.

Say you have a BMW twin turbo 3 litre SE coupe, and you also have an M3 coupe, both do 0-60mph in 5 seconds, both have the same ratio gear box, both go round the ring in the same time, on paper they are the same.
However, drive both back to back and you will see emotionally they are very different, even though the measurments are the same, they way they deliver them are far from the same.

Measurements don't ever tell you everything.
For a start you have know what you are measuring.

[gizlaroc]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

But are we measuring everything when it comes to digital playback?

Or are we just measuring the equivalent of 0-60, bhp and torque? Leaving out other far more important things?


I am not saying that is the case, but like anything, it is not until we know what to measure, or how to measure those things, that we realise previous results were only half the story.

[Crackie]

Troubleatmill said:

Sir. I've never met you - but I'm sure you are a decent bloke.

You can buy 1st gen copies of studio masters. Each tape is eye wateringly expensive though.
I cannot afford it.

But ... and this was my point ( and maybe I didn't make it well - a couple of bottles of red were in play.)

The sound quality is in a completely different league. ( being played on studio machines )

I immediately stopped spending on hifi once I heard it.


I'll try an automotive analogy.
We talk Lambo's, Ferrari's, McLarens etc. All very fast and impressive stuff.
Then you get a shot at driving an F1 car.

The experience just redefines your understanding.
And - it is unattainable.

Hope this helps explain.

I owe you an apology - my post was rude. Sorry.

Regarding master tape being in a different league, I have little experience here. 25 years ago the press seemed to think high end vinyl was very close to master tape, and there may have been small improvements since then. There was a turntable group test in Feb 1990's Hi-Fi Choice; the test used master tapes from Altarus Records evaluate the performance of various players. The article, by Richard Black, concluded that the two best decks in the test ( Pink Triangle PT TOO with SME V & Townsend Rock Reference with Excaliber arm ) were extremely close to the master tape. The cartridge used for the test was far from state of the art; it was a mid range £100.00 Audio Technica AT-F5 moving coil. Still have the magazine.

Various newcomers such as Voyd, SME and Avid have appeared to improve things further in the last 25 years. The debate about whether or not CD sounds better than vinyl has been done to death already but there appears to be little to choose between them.

Edited by Crackie on Sunday 23 March 10:07