Do you still believe in good hi-fi?

[Crackie]

Hi Passionforsound,
At what price point do you consider 'good' Hi-Fi starts ? ( system with single CD or vinyl source )

Edited by Crackie on Thursday 24th July 08:35

[passionforsound]

Crackie said:

Hi Passionforsound,
At what price point do you consider 'good' Hi-Fi starts ? ( system with single CD or vinyl source )

Edited by Crackie on Thursday 24th July 08:35

A good starter system with a single source (i.e. amplifier, bookshelf speakers and either CD player or turntable) can start for only a few hundred pounds - there is some fantastic "budget" kit on the market. Where you go from there is upto you, the listener needs to explore what sound they're getting for £1k, £2k, etc. Many of our visitors push over £1k as they see the benefits of going a little higher and want to get interest free finance.

For a good solid single source system you're looking at £1k+ but nowadays you can get a lot more for your money. Some single box systems have changed the rules in recent years like the Arcam Solo Mini and Naim Uniti range - match a Uniti model (which combines CD/streaming with an amp and DAC) with a good pair of speakers and you've got one hell of a compact system with the benefit that it can *still* be upgraded as and when you see fit by adding a separate power amp, etc (see item 6 on the manifesto)

[AC43]

Mouse1903 said:

I'm not a fan of iPod docks and sound bars, they just aren't the same quality as a proper stereo or separates set-up.

I still insist on separates, much to my wife's irritation.

My one concession to the iPod dock type things is the Bose Soundlink Mini by wife recently bought me for. But that's for the garden or for taking on holiday. Remarkably good for what it is, but a just a mobile solution at the end of the day.

[900T-R]

And you know what? Just about any recording that I previously thought was beyond redemption, has become more enjoyable the better my system got. The crap bits are more easily recognised, absolutely - but they are also easier to separate and 'forgotten about' where before it was just one big mess of 'white noise' that the music unsuccessfully tried to break through.

Yes, great recordings are 'shown off' to a greater extent, too, and you get to appreciate why they sound good, but the gain in musical enjoyment isn't as huge as with those (assumed) 'basket cases'.

There's more music on our discs and files than we (will ever?) realise...

The_Burg said:

HiFi yes, recording quality nope.
Modern recordings are terrible clipped, compressed crap. There are exceptions but very few.

This is the reason HiFi has effectively died and everyone uses crappy MP3, the CD doesn't sound better any more. It's just as bad.

Try and get a recording from a local band straight from the desk at a gig not studio.

You will be staggered.

The victim of the Loudness War is us and the HiFi industry which the UK ruled the world in for a many, many years.

[RedLeicester]

900T-R said:

Yes, great recordings are 'shown off' to a greater extent, too, and you get to appreciate why they sound good, but the gain in musical enjoyment isn't as huge as with those (assumed) 'basket cases'.

There's more music on our discs and files than we (will ever?) realise...

Definitely, and often the rightly maligned slammed mixes are handled admirably on good kit whereas cheaper stuff just falls apart.

[Jobbo]

Three points:
- floorstanders are best? That's opinion; it would equally be opinion (and possibly more accurate) to say electrostatics are best, but neither opinion has any place in the list.
- the cables matter comment sounds like an upselling opportunity, deliberately vague to cause doubt in the listener's mind. They matter in that they must be sufficient, yes, but 10%? No way. Plus cables are priced by the metre, so there's a physical reason for paying more in a larger room, to put the kit where you want it. Not a sound quality reason.
- Number 12 should be number 1.

[passionforsound]

Jobbo said:

Three points:
- floorstanders are best? That's opinion; it would equally be opinion (and possibly more accurate) to say electrostatics are best, but neither opinion has any place in the list.
- the cables matter comment sounds like an upselling opportunity, deliberately vague to cause doubt in the listener's mind. They matter in that they must be sufficient, yes, but 10%? No way. Plus cables are priced by the metre, so there's a physical reason for paying more in a larger room, to put the kit where you want it. Not a sound quality reason.
- Number 12 should be number 1.

- Good point about electrostatics. Outside of many budgets though and in many cases not practical. We have to keep our Quad 2912s out of the way and wheel them to our showroom for demos as theyre too big to have out permanently.
- Cables matter, but as part of the point on 10% on accessories. I disagree with the point raised by another member that someone with a £10k system would spend £200 on a rack (this has never happened with us, the 10% rule more or less holds true), but remember point 10, if you don't hear the difference its not worth it and we actively encourage people to listen to one cable over another and against the cheap "giveaway" ones
- Agreed on the last one, we just wanted to end and start with a bang! :-)

[Pixelpeep7r]

i long for decent hifi and i have a yearning for some vintage kit (except the speakers) - a nice big amp with analog vu meters

When i was 15 a mate sold me a Quad303 amp for £10 - i sold within a week for £30 - thought i was clever, just checked ebay and seen how much they are going for now lol

[g3rrd]

Having no reference points for "quality sounding" HiFi I recently decided explore the 2nd hand route.

So far Unison Research Unico hybrid amp. ProAc Studio 110's on Target stands, Arcam/Avondale AAA5 CDP and a Squeezebox Touch.

Very little thought given to cables?

[Emeye]

All my CDs and Vinyl are still hiding away in boxes. I gave up with "Hi-Fi" when I had kids - but then again I'm not sure I was ever "Hi-Fi", I was always affordable decent quality sounds - to that I now add convenience.

When I finally discovered Spotify it blew my mind, and I have purchased some half decent headphones and do most of my listening in bed when everyone is asleep or in the car, in which I tend to upgrade the system, but I am always changing cars so this can get time consuming as every car has different challenges.

My mate spent about 10 grand on an amazing Vinyl and CD system in his lounge, but while it sounded amazing, it didn't sound £9000 better than my system that I put together using end of line Richersound kit and second-hand Rebel Revolver record deck for £30 from a shop near work - all this now lives at my parents house in my old bed room.

I can tell the difference between Vinyl, CDs and reasonable quality mp3s - I can definitely say my iphone 5 sounds better than my Samsung Galaxy S3, and I keep threatening to get a Hi-Fi system, but the space these systems take up and the fact that most of my music will be played from Spotify puts me off, as the source will always be slightly compromised.

[Crackie]

passionforsound said:

- Cables matter, but as part of the point on 10% on accessories. I disagree with the point raised by another member that someone with a £10k system would spend £200 on a rack (this has never happened with us, the 10% rule more or less holds true), but remember point 10, if you don't hear the difference its not worth it and we actively encourage people to listen to one cable over another and against the cheap "giveaway" ones

Hi Passionforsound, it was me who posted about allocating a relatively small part of the budget to accessories. I completely agree that it is the listener's opinion that matters when deciding the merits of cables & stands etc. I do have a question for you though; the 10% rules implies that cables and other accessories are responsible for 10% of the system's overall sound. What percentage of a system's performance do you think accessories are responsible for ?

The reason I ask is that I've worked in the OEM Hi-FI speaker industry for over 20 years and I've been fortunate to have met design teams from B&W, Meridian, KEF, Celestion, Acoustic Energy, TDL, Mission, Wharfedale, NHT, Sony + various driver manufacturers. Why do the manufacturers above use the most basic of entry level cabling inside their products ?
Manifesto point number 4. says "Speakers Matter Most" and I agree that speakers are by far the most important component however speaker designers appear to consider the contribution of the cabling between amp and speaker and also the speaker terminal / crossover / drive unit to be a very minor factor.

Do you have an opinion on why speaker makers and amplifier makers don't generally sell speaker cable and why amplifier and source component makers don't generally sell interconnects ? .

Edited by Crackie on Friday 25th July 07:03

[T1547]

Emeye said:

I can tell the difference between Vinyl, CDs and reasonable quality mp3s - I can definitely say my iphone 5 sounds better than my Samsung Galaxy S3, and I keep threatening to get a Hi-Fi system, but the space these systems take up and the fact that most of my music will be played from Spotify puts me off, as the source will always be slightly compromised.

It needn't be compromised because of a streaming system though. I have around £7k's worth of hifi driven by a comparatively cheap £300 sonos connect that uses the Qobuz (similar to Spotify) streaming service playing in FLAC format. Undoubtedly helped by an external DAC but sounds great

[Type R Tom]

I’ve had many a pub debate with me mates about Hifi, with quite a few mates into music within my social group it never fails to surprise me what they use to listen to it with. Things like an iPhone full of music but using the bundled headphones that came with it or another mate with massive amounts of music who insists his 15 year old flashy light system sounds as good as my rotel / kef / separates.

Now I probably sound like a snob but when I was 16 I had my first Saturday job in Asda and wanted a new system, I was determined to get a flashy light / multiple woofer Sony (or whatever it was) but my Dad convinced me to go buy a What Hifi with a trip to Richer Sounds and I’ve never looked back.

My point is that I really think it’s all completely subjective, if you like your Metallica through apple’s bundled head phone go for it. If you like Radiohead through a flashy light system who am I to argue. I just sometimes think they don’t know what their missing!

[900T-R]

Crackie said:

The reason I ask is that I've worked in the OEM Hi-FI speaker industry for over 20 years and I've been fortunate to have met design teams from B&W, Meridian, KEF, Celestion, Acoustic Energy, TDL, Mission, Wharfedale, NHT, Sony + various driver manufacturers. Why do the manufacturers above use the most basic of entry level cabling inside their products ?
Manifesto point number 4. says "Speakers Matter Most" and I agree that speakers are by far the most important component however speaker designers appear to consider the contribution of the cabling between amp and speaker and also the speaker terminal / crossover / drive unit to be a very minor factor.

As a counterpoint, most of the above names are now part of some Chinese mega conglomerate and sold through mass market outlets, no? It's just like questioning the value of Ohlins/Penske/Intrax because most 'aspirational'/'premium' mass market cars use the most basic units that Tenneco/Sachs/Kayaba make on the cars they sell...


The problem with cabling is not that they don't matter - every single one of them will work like a crossover filter to some extent just like resisitors and capacitors elsewhere in the signal path, and I don't think there's any that can lay a claim to 'do no harm' of any kind to the music signal.

The problem morel ies with the sometimes hard to fathom claims, lack of convincing scientific arguments and outrageous pricing structures that most if not all 'high end' cable manufacturers seem to be guilty of.

I'm not averse to spending far more money on my hifi than the general public would deem 'sensible' (although I prefer to buy second hand) but I'd like to see tangible value in design, materials and engineering. I can appreciate why my Avantgarde Duo horn speakers with active subs cost as much as they did when new given the intricacies of horn speaker design, the quality of the drivers, the level of precision needed for manufacturing those big tractrix horns out of ABS to make sure they perform as calculated and even the silver internal cabling - but the same five figure sum for an interlink?

[P700DEE]

900T-R said:

Crackie said:

The reason I ask is that I've worked in the OEM Hi-FI speaker industry for over 20 years and I've been fortunate to have met design teams from B&W, Meridian, KEF, Celestion, Acoustic Energy, TDL, Mission, Wharfedale, NHT, Sony + various driver manufacturers. Why do the manufacturers above use the most basic of entry level cabling inside their products ?
Manifesto point number 4. says "Speakers Matter Most" and I agree that speakers are by far the most important component however speaker designers appear to consider the contribution of the cabling between amp and speaker and also the speaker terminal / crossover / drive unit to be a very minor factor.

As a counterpoint, most of the above names are now part of some Chinese mega conglomerate and sold through mass market outlets, no? It's just like questioning the value of Ohlins/Penske/Intrax because most 'aspirational'/'premium' mass market cars use the most basic units that Tenneco/Sachs/Kayaba make on the cars they sell...


The problem with cabling is not that they don't matter - every single one of them will work like a crossover filter to some extent just like resisitors and capacitors elsewhere in the signal path, and I don't think there's any that can lay a claim to 'do no harm' of any kind to the music signal.

The problem morel ies with the sometimes hard to fathom claims, lack of convincing scientific arguments and outrageous pricing structures that most if not all 'high end' cable manufacturers seem to be guilty of.

I'm not averse to spending far more money on my hifi than the general public would deem 'sensible' (although I prefer to buy second hand) but I'd like to see tangible value in design, materials and engineering. I can appreciate why my Avantgarde Duo horn speakers with active subs cost as much as they did when new given the intricacies of horn speaker design, the quality of the drivers, the level of precision needed for manufacturing those big tractrix horns out of ABS to make sure they perform as calculated and even the silver internal cabling - but the same five figure sum for an interlink?

Well said , and nice choice in speakers, I've only got Unos

Listening to music via Hi-Fi is very subjective. I think people listen in different ways and that Hi-Fi gives you audio clues to that music. Better Hi-Fi gives much better clues but not everyone needs them to appreciate what they hear. Great Hi-Fi sounds great even with poor recordings.

In terms of $$$ you can get 95% of the sound of my system for about 10% of the outlay. On the other hand I recently went to one of Linns High Res evenings and heard a system worth far more than mine that was a huge disappointment.

If you are happy with your system then don't listen to anyone else's Hi-Fi can be an expensive slippery slope. I joined the New Ash Green Hi-Fi club 20+ years ago and spent more on Hi-Fi than cars !

[Crackie]

900T-R said:

As a counterpoint, most of the above names are now part of some Chinese mega conglomerate and sold through mass market outlets, no? It's just like questioning the value of Ohlins/Penske/Intrax because most 'aspirational'/'premium' mass market cars use the most basic units that Tenneco/Sachs/Kayaba make on the cars they sell...

I appreciate and understand the shock absorber analogy; I did qualify my post by saying that it is for the listener decide on the merit and value of any component they use. Regarding the current Far East ownership of some of the brands mentioned, my experience with all of them goes back to before any of the takeovers.

Clearly from a commercial point of view manufacturers have their own agenda. Speaker makers want buyers to buy the next speaker model up in the range not spend cash on cables; cable makers push the 10% rule for obvious reasons and retail are happy with the 10% rule due to the extremely healthy margins generated by accessories.

My original point was not to start another cables debate but to say the 10% ratio is too high in my opinion and the percentage of budget allocated to accessories should be less.

[The_Burg]

RedLeicester said:

The_Burg said:

Some Modern recordings are terrible clipped, compressed crap. There are plenty of exceptions but very few.-

That's a dreadfully jaded view. There are oodles of perfectly good modern recordings, it just depends on what you choose to listen to.

Why should i only be able to listen to certain types of music? Yes there are good recordings, some excellent.
In the mainstream though there generally isn't. I don't think it's unrealistic to expect to buy a CD and least be able to listen without having the dreadful crushed dynamics in vogue with modern production.

I can pick pretty much any 80s or early 90s CD off the shelf it will sound good. Why can't all modern ones be the same? There are decent modern ones but few.

The classic example is of course the Chilli Peppers Californication, the CD a wall of noise near unbearable. The unmastered 128k mp3 that can be found despite being low res is a revelation, music you want to turn up loud.

Come to that 50s and 60s vinyls still sound good. I like a very wide range of music, just wish the folk that package it did still.

Still it's fine in the car or on those terrible white plastic earphone supplied with iPods.

PS i'm not anti CD or any digital music. I moved to FLAC many years ago, still have 100s of CDs but to be honest it sounds as good if not better.

[FlossyThePig]

It's interesting how the emphasis changes over time.

http://www.audioaffair.co.uk/manifesto said:

4. Speakers matter most. Source matters, speakers matter more. If a recording sounds bad, you can change it. You can’t as easily change speakers. Make your choice count.

In the 70s the source was king. Speakers came much lower down the hi-fi food chain.

What do they mean by "If a recording sounds bad, you can change it"? How?

I was cynical in the '70s but now I'm deaf so I no longer have to take part in the chase of ever diminishing returns. My son has my old cd deck, amp and speakers which are giving sterling service in New Zealand.

How many audiophiles consider a trip to an audiologist as part of their upgrade process?

[anonymous-user]

I've loved music since I was 8, used to spend my pocket money on vinyl, then moved into cassette, CD, minidisc then (reluctantly) MP3. My many hundreds of CDs have been ripped, put away and now live on my NAS. Same with my DVDs and Blu Ray. I have a HTPC which plays it all through a half decent AV receiver (Sony TR-DN1040) to ProAC and Mission floor standers & Cambridge Audio sub. This receiver by the way punches well above its weight in terms of features and sound quality.

Sounds nice enough and more importantly it's accessible which means we listen to/watch more media (it's not called music anymore). If you want something you'll actually use in your main living area this approach works well.

My first hifi seperates was Technics and JVC back in 1983 when I was 12 and my parents made me listen to everything on headphones! Personally I think something was lost with MP3, even at 320 kbps it doesn't sound right, no matter what you play it through. Still prefer vinyl and CD.

Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 25th July 20:21

[TonyRPH]

The_Burg said:

<snip>
I moved to FLAC many years ago, still have 100s of CDs but to be honest it sounds as good if not better.

I see this stated a lot - however in my own experience, I still prefer a CD, despite ripping my entire collection to flac a couple of years ago.

I've tried various DAC / media player combinations too, but CD still wins for me...

To answer the OP's original question - do I still believe in good hi-fi? Hell yes!!!