Subwoofer - where to start?
Discussion
Chaps,
I don't know much about HiFi. But I like listening to it. Currently I have a pair of Marcury Tannoy V1 speakers being driven by a C-Audio RA1001 studio amp with around 350watts per channel, fed by a NAD 910 pre-amp. (Yes, I know a studio amp isn't the sort of thing you usually find in home HiFi but it was available and quite powerful and seems to do a good enough job. The gains on it are turned right down and it still moves the speakers tidily enough.)
I like the overall effect. But I am aware that there is little in the way of bass, and my thoughts have been turning to subwoofers. From my teenage days of playing with in-car HiFi, I know the difference between active and passive subwoofers and have a vague grasp of the difference between sealed and ported systems (not that that's much help, probably.) I know that the NAD 910 has a subwoofer output (but have no idea how it is filtered - or how the 'main' output is filtered, come to mention it) so am guessing that this could be hooked up to another studio amp I have (another RA1001), which can be readily run in single-channel mode and hence produce around 600watts. I guess I then need to find a passive sub to put on the end of that.
And therein lie my questions; is this the best plan or should I think about an active sub instead? Wiring a passive sub would be a doddle so there is no convenience advantage to active, but is there a sound quality advantage? I am guessing that, given that an active sub would come with an amp which I don't need, my money would go further with a passive sub, non?
So, if I am looking for a passive sub, how much should I spend? eBay offers me things between £4.02p and about £1500. I am not keen to look at either end of that spectrum, but would a £50 budget seem stupid? Bear in mind that it is replacing a big hole in the sound spectrum, so anything would be an improvement.
Next question is placement. I understand that placement is something that can make a huge difference to sub performance, although I will be quite limited in the options here given the layout of the lounge. I guess this is simply something I need to try out to see what works and what doesn't.
Given my situation, what advice would anyone have? FWIW, my music taste is pretty eclectic. Classical through to eighties electronic to pop to trance. Nothing R&B-esque tho', and I suspect my tastes will be more towards a 'subtle and tuneful' sub than a 'loud' one.
Thanks,
Oli.
I don't know much about HiFi. But I like listening to it. Currently I have a pair of Marcury Tannoy V1 speakers being driven by a C-Audio RA1001 studio amp with around 350watts per channel, fed by a NAD 910 pre-amp. (Yes, I know a studio amp isn't the sort of thing you usually find in home HiFi but it was available and quite powerful and seems to do a good enough job. The gains on it are turned right down and it still moves the speakers tidily enough.)
I like the overall effect. But I am aware that there is little in the way of bass, and my thoughts have been turning to subwoofers. From my teenage days of playing with in-car HiFi, I know the difference between active and passive subwoofers and have a vague grasp of the difference between sealed and ported systems (not that that's much help, probably.) I know that the NAD 910 has a subwoofer output (but have no idea how it is filtered - or how the 'main' output is filtered, come to mention it) so am guessing that this could be hooked up to another studio amp I have (another RA1001), which can be readily run in single-channel mode and hence produce around 600watts. I guess I then need to find a passive sub to put on the end of that.
And therein lie my questions; is this the best plan or should I think about an active sub instead? Wiring a passive sub would be a doddle so there is no convenience advantage to active, but is there a sound quality advantage? I am guessing that, given that an active sub would come with an amp which I don't need, my money would go further with a passive sub, non?
So, if I am looking for a passive sub, how much should I spend? eBay offers me things between £4.02p and about £1500. I am not keen to look at either end of that spectrum, but would a £50 budget seem stupid? Bear in mind that it is replacing a big hole in the sound spectrum, so anything would be an improvement.
Next question is placement. I understand that placement is something that can make a huge difference to sub performance, although I will be quite limited in the options here given the layout of the lounge. I guess this is simply something I need to try out to see what works and what doesn't.
Given my situation, what advice would anyone have? FWIW, my music taste is pretty eclectic. Classical through to eighties electronic to pop to trance. Nothing R&B-esque tho', and I suspect my tastes will be more towards a 'subtle and tuneful' sub than a 'loud' one.
Thanks,
Oli.
My speakers have subs built in. I would go for active rather than passive as these are more easily tuned to match your main speakers. I started with a baby REL and bought another for 99p recently off the bay. No RELs but plenty of other powered subs available , pick one close , they are heavy and will cost a fortune to post.
I think you will struggle to find much in the way of decent passive subs out there.
Just looking at the NAD 910, it seems that is an AV preamp. It may be that it's not set up correctly and is filtering out bass to send to your subwoofer out that doesn't exist? If you are just listening to music, I wouldn't have thought you would need a sub unless you like to listen to bass heavy music. It would be worth checking the settings on the NAD before spending any cash I think.
As mentioned, if you do want to experiment with a sub, get something close to you off Ebay and give it a try. Or Richer Sounds have a new Tannoy one for £99. You do (for the most part) get what you pay for with subs though. I have a SVS SB13 Ultra that can literally move you when watching a film or listening to bass heavy music!
Just looking at the NAD 910, it seems that is an AV preamp. It may be that it's not set up correctly and is filtering out bass to send to your subwoofer out that doesn't exist? If you are just listening to music, I wouldn't have thought you would need a sub unless you like to listen to bass heavy music. It would be worth checking the settings on the NAD before spending any cash I think.
As mentioned, if you do want to experiment with a sub, get something close to you off Ebay and give it a try. Or Richer Sounds have a new Tannoy one for £99. You do (for the most part) get what you pay for with subs though. I have a SVS SB13 Ultra that can literally move you when watching a film or listening to bass heavy music!
Chaps,
Thanks for the answers. That's quite a big vote in favour of an active subwoofer - which slightly surprises me. I'll have a look for them on eBay. Yes, the advice to buy one locally is good; thankfully I live in London and there seem to be quite a lot of people selling HiFi stuff near to me.
Camelot, yes, it's an AV preamp that I have. Good idea to look at the settings to see whether something is being filtered off. Is a sub not normally needed for regular music listening then? The same speaker system is also used for the TV, so is used for films and whatnot.
Thanks for your inputs chaps.
Oli.
Thanks for the answers. That's quite a big vote in favour of an active subwoofer - which slightly surprises me. I'll have a look for them on eBay. Yes, the advice to buy one locally is good; thankfully I live in London and there seem to be quite a lot of people selling HiFi stuff near to me.
Camelot, yes, it's an AV preamp that I have. Good idea to look at the settings to see whether something is being filtered off. Is a sub not normally needed for regular music listening then? The same speaker system is also used for the TV, so is used for films and whatnot.
Thanks for your inputs chaps.
Oli.
Personally, I like a sub for music as well but the purists would have you believe otherwise 
Seriously, the main reason is that what a sub needs to do for movies (the .1 for the LFE etc) is generally different for music (where it shouldn't be adding anything to the recording) but I find with a decent sub you can use for both. People tend to run a sub louder for movies however if you do the same for music it can get a bit boomy. Your NAD should have a setting for the speakers being large or small. It's nothing to do with the physical size but whether they receive the full signal or have it filtered off to the sub. Set them to large and see how you go from there first.
As far as putting a sub into your system, the best thing to do is experiment and see what you like. You could always try something like the Richer Sounds one and return it if you think it's not worth it. However, if it sounds good to your ears, then it's good enough!
Seriously, the main reason is that what a sub needs to do for movies (the .1 for the LFE etc) is generally different for music (where it shouldn't be adding anything to the recording) but I find with a decent sub you can use for both. People tend to run a sub louder for movies however if you do the same for music it can get a bit boomy. Your NAD should have a setting for the speakers being large or small. It's nothing to do with the physical size but whether they receive the full signal or have it filtered off to the sub. Set them to large and see how you go from there first.
As far as putting a sub into your system, the best thing to do is experiment and see what you like. You could always try something like the Richer Sounds one and return it if you think it's not worth it. However, if it sounds good to your ears, then it's good enough!
I use my AV receiver for music and movie mostly through XBMC. Pretty much all music and TV goes through as DPL2 playing through 5.1 and sounds great to my ears. The sub crossover is set to 80hz with volume about 50% and the amp just works it out. Not pure audiophile but who cares? I watch more film and listen to more music than ever because it's all accessible.
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 31st August 22:02
The Tannoys are never going to be capable of massive bass, given the size.
But first.. check that your speakers are in phase - e.g. + from the amp goes to + on the speaker and - to - respectively.
Out of phase speakers can result in weak bass.
Depending on how much you plan to spend...
If you're looking to spend upwards of £500, your money would probably be better spent buying a pair of floor standing speakers (space permitting) - something like the Q Acoustics 2050i.
Looking at the schematic, the amp you have looks to be a reasonably competent design, so your sound is probably being held back by the NAD preamp in this instance.
As others have suggested - it might be a good idea to check the bass management settings in the NAD.
You could try a cheap passive preamp off Ebay, to see if that improves the bass - or if you want to stay with the A/V preamp theme, find a Yamaha DSP-E800 - that is a *really* good sounding preamp, both for HiFi and surround duties. You should be able to get a decent one for around £60.
Then add an active subwoofer such as this Paradigm.
HTH.
But first.. check that your speakers are in phase - e.g. + from the amp goes to + on the speaker and - to - respectively.
Out of phase speakers can result in weak bass.
Depending on how much you plan to spend...
If you're looking to spend upwards of £500, your money would probably be better spent buying a pair of floor standing speakers (space permitting) - something like the Q Acoustics 2050i.
Looking at the schematic, the amp you have looks to be a reasonably competent design, so your sound is probably being held back by the NAD preamp in this instance.
As others have suggested - it might be a good idea to check the bass management settings in the NAD.
You could try a cheap passive preamp off Ebay, to see if that improves the bass - or if you want to stay with the A/V preamp theme, find a Yamaha DSP-E800 - that is a *really* good sounding preamp, both for HiFi and surround duties. You should be able to get a decent one for around £60.
Then add an active subwoofer such as this Paradigm.
HTH.
TonyRPH said:
The Tannoys are never going to be capable of massive bass, given the size.
But first.. check that your speakers are in phase - e.g. + from the amp goes to + on the speaker and - to - respectively.
As others have suggested - it might be a good idea to check the bass management settings in the NAD.
But first.. check that your speakers are in phase - e.g. + from the amp goes to + on the speaker and - to - respectively.
As others have suggested - it might be a good idea to check the bass management settings in the NAD.
this should be step 1. Boundary loading can be used to get the most from the bass that the Tannoys do make. This link explains more http://www.genelec.com/tech-tips/tech-tips-archive...The NAD 910 filters its subwoofer above 80Hz with a filter slope of 12dB per octave; whether that spec suits the Tannoys is very hard to say because it depends on the passive sub too. Some passive subs have crossovers inside them and some are just a driver in a box and they 'expect' the filtering to be carried out offboard prior to the power amp. The combination of the NADs 80Hz filter, spare C-audio power amp and a passive 'driver in a box' type sub could work very well but it there are a lot of variables which could spoil the party. This drive method is technically active i.e there are no passive components between the amp's output and drive unit input. A fully active sub, with amp and filters in the enclosure, should allow much more adjustment/flexibility and is likely to get a better result than the 'passive' route.
Edited by Crackie on Monday 1st September 13:49
Before buying try here:
http://www.bkelec.com
There are 'better' subs out there (SVS and Velodyne for home theatre) but not many can match the price/quality.
In general, for tight bass where depth and sheer output isn't a concern a sealed box would be easier to use and set-up.
For outright depth and volume ported designs normally do better.
As an aside (and another plus for BK subs) - they can be temperamental buggers - personally, I've managed to kill the plate amps on a B&W asw750 (twice - excellent sealed box when working but £499 for a replacement amp so now I have a spare box and spare 12" driver). I also managed to kill the amp on an SVS PC13-U - ridiculous output and great fun but the original amps are no longer available to have to buy the later model.
As all this was going on I kept an old Castle sub - sealed box, nice finish and a simple 250w MOSFET amp (none of the KW digital malarkey!) - it doesn't match the other two in output or depth but is an excellent partner to large floor standers (and can fill in even when the speaker manufacturers state their speakers can reach 22Hz - yeah, at -30Db perhaps!) - the point is, the nigh-on 15 year old Castle just works - the BK stuff is very similar.
Their XXLS subs are sealed, the monolith is ported - they do smaller designs too which are just as competent and well regarded - check them out before spending at Richer Sounds.
Or, PM me if you fancy a reliable nicely built Castle 12" ATC driver sub for £125 - retailed at £900 and it's good
ETA:
Also got a DSP-E800 sitting in a spare room doing nothing - as mentioned earlier (Tony?) they are really good - only replaced mine because I 'needed' HDMI switching - I used it for years as an add on to the stereo system (what they were originally designed for - they have three amplifiers built in to power centre and two rears then output front L&R to existing stereo amp) - using it with 'effect off' turns them into a very good 2.1 pre amp for stereo + sub use.
TrueHD and DTS-HD can be used if you have a BR player with analogue outs - feed the 7.1 into analogue ins on the Yam for excellent results.
http://www.bkelec.com
There are 'better' subs out there (SVS and Velodyne for home theatre) but not many can match the price/quality.
In general, for tight bass where depth and sheer output isn't a concern a sealed box would be easier to use and set-up.
For outright depth and volume ported designs normally do better.
As an aside (and another plus for BK subs) - they can be temperamental buggers - personally, I've managed to kill the plate amps on a B&W asw750 (twice - excellent sealed box when working but £499 for a replacement amp so now I have a spare box and spare 12" driver). I also managed to kill the amp on an SVS PC13-U - ridiculous output and great fun but the original amps are no longer available to have to buy the later model.
As all this was going on I kept an old Castle sub - sealed box, nice finish and a simple 250w MOSFET amp (none of the KW digital malarkey!) - it doesn't match the other two in output or depth but is an excellent partner to large floor standers (and can fill in even when the speaker manufacturers state their speakers can reach 22Hz - yeah, at -30Db perhaps!) - the point is, the nigh-on 15 year old Castle just works - the BK stuff is very similar.
Their XXLS subs are sealed, the monolith is ported - they do smaller designs too which are just as competent and well regarded - check them out before spending at Richer Sounds.
Or, PM me if you fancy a reliable nicely built Castle 12" ATC driver sub for £125 - retailed at £900 and it's good
ETA:
Also got a DSP-E800 sitting in a spare room doing nothing - as mentioned earlier (Tony?) they are really good - only replaced mine because I 'needed' HDMI switching - I used it for years as an add on to the stereo system (what they were originally designed for - they have three amplifiers built in to power centre and two rears then output front L&R to existing stereo amp) - using it with 'effect off' turns them into a very good 2.1 pre amp for stereo + sub use.
TrueHD and DTS-HD can be used if you have a BR player with analogue outs - feed the 7.1 into analogue ins on the Yam for excellent results.
Edited by legzr1 on Monday 1st September 11:53
TonyRPH said:
The Tannoys are never going to be capable of massive bass, given the size.
But first.. check that your speakers are in phase - e.g. + from the amp goes to + on the speaker and - to - respectively.
Out of phase speakers can result in weak bass.
Sorry but why ? I think what you actually mean is check your speakers are in phase with each other. i.e that either both +ves go to the postives on the speakers or that both +ves go to the negatives on the speakers. A number of Hi-Fi components are phase inverting and with push/pull drivers it does not matter if you put them in true phase or out of phase. I have heard many systems that sound better "out of phase" Having speakers out of phase with each other does usually result in a loss of bass, remember to check inter connects too, accidently swapping left and right channels doesn't help either But first.. check that your speakers are in phase - e.g. + from the amp goes to + on the speaker and - to - respectively.
Out of phase speakers can result in weak bass.
Subs like the REL can either take a dedicated line out from an AV amp or just couple it to one of your speaker outputs.
P700DEE said:
Sorry but why ? I think what you actually mean is check your speakers are in phase with each other.<snip>
That is what I meant - as somebody else clearly understood.I was just making the post as simple as possible, which is why I chose not to launch a technical tirade such as yours.
But as you say - it often doesn't matter if both speakers are "pushing" or "pulling" - and indeed in some cases both "pulling" can sound better for whatever reason.
But there you go - so long as they are both doing the same thing, it matters not.
But if one is "pushing", and the other "pulling", then the bass will cancel out (which is what I alluded to in my original post).
KISS.
Well, it's interesting what you find out. Many thanks to Tony for this suggestion;
It has also left me wondering whether I really need a sub or not, and I'm kinda inclined to enjoy the gain I have just made before dashing into something new.
So, to answer the original question "Subwoofer - where to start?", the answer seems to be "by making sure that you are getting the most out of your current kit".
Thanks again Tony. Beer owing, should we ever meet in the same pub at the same time ...
Oli.
TonyRPH said:
But first.. check that your speakers are in phase - e.g. + from the amp goes to + on the speaker and - to - respectively.
I was sure I had checked and double-checked the speaker polarity to make sure it was correct but I swapped the terminals on one over and the bass was more noticeable, and the higher notes seemed crisper as well, making the 'directionality' of the sound better. I don't know whether I have moved them from out-of-phase to in-phase, or whether I have a setup that rewards out-of-phase speakers, but the improvement has made me smile! It has also left me wondering whether I really need a sub or not, and I'm kinda inclined to enjoy the gain I have just made before dashing into something new. So, to answer the original question "Subwoofer - where to start?", the answer seems to be "by making sure that you are getting the most out of your current kit".
Thanks again Tony. Beer owing, should we ever meet in the same pub at the same time ...
Oli.
B33FY said:
Another one for BK electronics subs, I've a XXL400 in a 6.1 system with various sizes of monitor audio Radius speakers. I couldn't justify the sheer size of the monolith. The neighbours love the 400 though..
Great quality item, especially in the optional piano black.
Another vote for BK and the 400. It's basically a sealed version of the Monolith anyway. Great for music and still ridiculously capable with films. Great quality item, especially in the optional piano black.
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