Looking at changing my Celestion A2s...but to what?

[Funk]

Crackie said:

The ones in Finland might still be available....if not you could place a wanted advert.

https://www.hifishark.com/search?q=celestion+a3

Thanks Crackie, I think they're more hassle than it's worth - the guy wants collection-only and NOK 10k is around £925. Their tweeters are the earlier ones (single bar), not in great nick and the front covers are missing if Google Translate is correct.

I need to get my post-count up over on PFM to post a wanted ad - ironically it means blathering on for a bit without actually being able to contribute much of use over there... I'll also get wanted posts up on Hifi Wigwam, AVForums, Art of Sound, hififorsale etc.

To be frank there's no real urgency, I can wait. I will get the front end sorted first; I really like the look of the Hegel H90 and Röst - trying to work out whether the 25% power uplift on the Röst would give me more options speaker-wise in the future although I guess there'd be nothing to stop me selling an H90 to upgrade later.

It might also be interesting to look at other speaker options whilst I wait for A3s to come up one day; I'm not closed-minded enough to think the A3s are the be-all and end-all of speakers and something else out there might float my boat even more. Who knows...I suspect I may find hidden depths to the A2s with the improvements a Hegel brings.

Edited by Funk on Monday 8th October 23:19

[legzr1]

Except for the extra power (which probably wouldn’t matter too much with large efficient floorstanders and Hegel are well regarded for high current ability no matter the power output) what’s the difference between the Rost and H90?

Better on-board DACs and more robust streaming ability might be a better thing to look at rather than just ‘power’.

Speakers: from personal experience, around that budget I’d suggest Kef ref 3.2, 4.2 (at a push) and B&W CDM7NT / 9NT.
All good speakers with slightly different strengths.
For average sized rooms and excellent with all types of music the Kef Reference 3.2 is well worth having a listen to.

[Funk]

So after faffing about looking at integrated network streamers for ages (Hegel, Leema Acoustics Quasar and - briefly - a Naim Nova) I decided to sort out my ste excuse for a DAC for the time being and have acquired an Audiolab M-DAC (in silver, I'd have preferred black but it was a sensible price). Surprising what a difference it's made to the sound and not bad for under £350 delivered (they were £600 new I think).

One of the things it does that's really convenient is allow volume control over the USB input from the PC (effectively it's a fancy-pants external USB soundcard really). It fits with the way I use my PC for everything on the big screen and I wasn't sure whether other integrated solutions would offer this functionality. Conveniently it's also capable of functioning as a digital pre-amp so I could just slap a decent power amp on the back of it as I don't use any analogue sources (the TV's output for things like smart functions and XBOX One X are optical so will also run straight into the M-DAC).

It's a vast improvement over the cheap Behringer USB DAC I was using! Still got the A2s and the Cyrus 8vs2 amp for the time being...

[Funk]

Another update (if anyone's still following this...)! I spotted an XTZ A100 D3 for sale, it has the power reserves to properly drive the A2s. Owner reports (including one who used his with A2s for years) and online reviews are overwhelmingly positive so for £495 I figured it's worth a punt! I should also get £300-ish back on the 8vs2 so the cost-to-change is negligible.



Specs:

Output power class AB
2x 110W 8 ohm RMS
2x 180W 4 ohm RMS
2x 300W 2 ohm RMS

Output power class A (apparently it sounds best in class A but runs very warm when doing so - the amp can auto-switch its modes depending on temp)
2x 50W 8 ohm RMS

Distortion: <0.03% (20hz to 20khz, 10w)
Frequency range: 5-50kHz (non flatness <0.5db)

Should hopefully get it set up this weekend.

Edited by Funk on Friday 17th September 19:52

[legzr1]

My prediction......



That is going to sound great with the A2s.
Even at rrp when new they were a relative bargain. At that price there’s nothing to worry about.

Do these have an in-board DAC? It’s been a while since I read up on them but the ‘digital’ input suggests a DAC too.

[Funk]

Thanks legzr1! It's completely not where I thought I'd end up but there we go...

Yes, it has several digital inputs, 4x coax and 1x optical:



It's kind of moot though as I'm running USB from the PC into the Audiolab M-DAC which gives me volume control from the PC itself which is one of the things I was after. The M-DAC also takes the TV's optical output too. It even has a switchable MM/MC phono stage if I ever feel the urge to add vinyl (unlikely as I don't have the space for records).

This XTZ has had a single owner and was merely a 'backup' amp apparently in the event the owner's main amp was away for a service etc and as such has relatively few hours on the clock.

As you say, the cost is so small and if I don't like it for some reason I doubt I'll have too much hassle shifting it on either. Just goes to show what can be done with relatively little money on the used market. The whole system owes me less than £1,500...!

Out of interest do you know roughly what the original UK RRP was for the XTZ? There's not a huge amount of information online about pricing any more.

Edited by Funk on Wednesday 22 May 20:24

[legzr1]

I remember pricing being around £700-£800 depending on exchange rates - it’s a Swedish company and designed there but built in ‘hifi city’ in China and there were few U.K. dealers.

From reports I read way back they run very warm (Class A bias - they all do that) so be sure to place it where it’s going to get plenty of ventilation - not the sort of thing you stack or ram into shelves with 1mm space above and below.

Let us know how it sounds when warmed up.

ETA:

http://www.epichomecinema.co.uk/EpicHomeCinema/Amp...

Edited by legzr1 on Wednesday 22 May 10:54

[Funk]

I've still got my old rack with decent space on the shelves so it'll be going on the bottom here:



The Naim gear is long-gone.

[Funk]

A brief setup/play has really impressed me, need to set it up properly and do some more extensive listening when my tinnitus isn't whistling quite so much....

I think I should replace my old interconnects (Cable Talk Monitor 2) as they're tatty and the shrouds on the connectors are disintegrating with age. Any recommendations under £100? Speaker cable is Chord Odyssey 2 which I don't think needs changing.

[Funk]

Had a spot of good luck a few weeks back - an ad popped up for a single, poor condition black A3; I wasn't interested in it but what did catch my eye was a pair of cherry A3s on the other side of the room. I messaged the seller to say I wasn't interested in the single black one but would appreciate if he would let me know if he ever came to sell the cherry ones. He messaged back and said he had actually been thinking about moving them on (he has another pair as well as a pair of A1s). His asking price was sensible and he asked if I minded giving him a couple of weeks to allow him to demo the single one in a 'pair' which was also reasonable. He sent over some pics of all the drive units etc and they're in superb condition.

So today found me setting off early for Huddersfield to collect them. Over 10 hours, 600 miles and £900 later they're in my living room and holy snot they're big! They make the A2s look like kids' toys... Initial impressions were that the bass was going to b e a problem but now the amp's warmed up they're sounding wonderfully balanced. They have the sort of effortlessness which comes from having so many drivers and cabinet space. Now the bass has calmed down, the biggest improvement - and which I'm so pleased about as it was one of the things I was looking for - is the midrange. The fact that the A3's mid unit is doing only that and bass duties fall to the 3 dedicated drivers means there's an openness that the A2s just never quite had.

The XTZ is doing a sterling job of driving them and I'm looking forward to spending the next few days and weeks running through my favourite albums!

[legzr1]

Knew you’d get there eventually!!

The A3s are cracking speakers and were underestimated in my opinion - they were Celestions last ‘real’ speaker before the market got flooded with all the F-series and terrible little subwoofer nonsense that tainted the brand.

Very well built, efficient and big/heavy - your XTZ shouldn’t have any problems with the 4 ohm load. They’re capable of huge volume and dynamics but are impressive at the other end of the scale too. Mine were black and looked liked coffins according to my ex - should have kept them and got rid of her but you live and learn.

Enjoy, they’re great speakers.

[Funk]

Thanks legzr1! I held out for cherry for that reason - the black ones are a big ol' slab of blackness...! Prefer cherry over rosewood too.

[legzr1]

I prefer Cherry too but they don’t come up for sale that often (as you know) and you have FAR more patience than me. Black were available, delivered by the dealer personally in his van at a very reasonable price so black it was!!

I enjoyed them for a couple of years, advertised them (cheekily asking what I paid for them) and had them sold within 15 minutes.

Enjoy.

[Funk]

I know this seems daft but I also bought a black M-DAC as the one I originally bought was the only silver component and it was driving me nuts! Really need to get on with getting that and the old amp sold but I think I'm going to hang onto the A2s for now; they're in great nick and they're worth more to me than the few hundred I'd get for them.

I also sorted out some decent interconnects, my brother had some QED Silver Spirals knocking around which I've nabbed off him.

[Funk]

Thread resurrection....!

I've really been enjoying the A3s for nearly 2 years now, however I am going to pick up a pair of Kef Reference 3.2s next weekend as I've been 'Celestion-only' for so long and really just fancy hearing what another legendary speakers can do. The A3s aren't going anywhere (probably!) but I just wanted to 'try a bit of strange' as it were.

I'd appreciate if those of you who've had them in the past could give me some tips on things to look out for? They're obviously 20yr old speakers now and the internal drivers make inspection difficult. What are the things to look out that are tell-tale signs of abuse or drivers on the way out?

[legzr1]

Mechanically speaking just the same as any other speaker. Quiet passage of music and get your ear to all the drivers to check they’re working.
The bass drivers can be checked by putting the hand through the front port. There’s an 8” driver at each end of the large ‘cancelling rod’ which runs vertically inside the cabinet. Gently placing a finger tip on each will confirm they’re working. The cancelling rod attaches to the magnets on the rear of each driver, one fires downwards the other fires upwards.

I think I’m right in saying these models didn’t suffer from doughnut rot that plagued the earlier 10X models.
The (3rd Gen on these) top UniQ driver is almost impossible to source new and difficult to source on the used market so be wary of non-working tweeters or scraping mid sections. If you’re deft with tools and soldering irons then it’s possible to replace just a blown tweeter on a UniQ driver but it’s awkward as hell and Kef won’t give instructions - they simply state replace the entire unit on BOTH speakers as they’re matched to 0.5 dB. Of course, that’s fairly useless advice when they have no stock to replace!

The ref 200C centre speaker uses the same UniQ driver so, at a stretch, one could be bought to salvage the driver.

Apart from that I can’t think of any other common issues with them.

As I’ve probably said elsewhere, I went from Kef 3.2 to A3s some years ago. I loved both for different reasons. The impact and dynamics of the A3 were fantastic (especially driven by an amp with balls). The 3.2 had a touch more warmth, delved deeper in the bass and had imaging to die for.

Eventually I sold both pairs, dabbled with electrostatics (pleased I tried them - female vocal and acoustic material - fantastic. Anything else and they couldn’t get near the celestion or Kef) and ended with Kef 4.2. A great mix of the best of the A3 and 3.2 but NOT made for smaller rooms. If I had to choose again, starting over, in an average sized U.K. room i’d go for Kef 3.2.

BUT, your room, your ears, your taste in music - subjectively only you can decide.
Mechanically, the Reference range are just about bomb-proof.

[Funk]

Thanks for that legzr1, incredibly useful information as always!

I'm assured that they're in great nick, have been owned by the guy from new which also bodes well. I don't know why but in my head I had the 3.2s as being roughly the same dimensions as the A2s but they're A3-sized which would absolutely rule out 4.2s in my room as I think the A3s are pushing it a bit as it is. Good to know it's possible to check the internal drivers through the ports.

As I say, I think it's really just a case of wanting to hear something different and they seem like a good place to start. I reckon I'll be able to shift them on easily enough if they don't work for me.

Re. spares I'm already in that boat with the A3s, it's a case of buying - and treating - with care and not doing something silly to them. I thought about hanging onto my A2s for spares but in the end I decided that if I were getting the 3.2s I'd need to move a pair to add a pair. The A2s also would only have provided tweeters and mid-bass units as of course the 3 bass drivers in each A3 are unique to that model...

Edited by Funk on Monday 27th September 12:27

[Funk]

Thanks in no small part to legzr1's guidance as to what to look for and check, I ended up buying the Ref 3.2s and have been running them for a couple of weeks now - not even properly located, just plonked next to the A3s for the time being - and thought I'd come back to post some thoughts.

Condition-wise the 3.2s seem in excellent nick (a few age-consistent marks on the cabinets) and I measured driver outputs with test tones generated in Audacity and read from my phone which was surprisingly accurate. It allowed me to verify the drivers (especially the tweeters) were functioning properly and that the output was correctly-matched on each speaker. I wasn't able to check the internal bass drivers as I couldn't reach far enough inside the cabinets to gently move the cones so I had to rely on ears for that. They sounded great in the guy's living room (again, not even properly set up) so I decided to go for it. £900 later I'm loading them into the car...

The biggest question is then; "Are they better than the A3s?" and I think I have to say that overall yes they are. They're a very different presentation to the A3s and they thrust and parry on certain things... The bass on the A3s is still epic (and imo goes deeper than the 3.2s) but that's not to say the 3.2s are in any way lacking; in fact I think that in my room they actually have a better balance for me. Where the 3.2s shine is the mid-range and treble integration which is ahead of what the A3s can do. It's a sweeter, less aggressive top end but not at the expense of detail. The presentation is slightly more cohesive, perhaps less 'fatiguing'? Again, that's not to say that the A3s were tiring in their presentation, only that I found myself listening for longer with the 3.2s than I recall doing with the A3s. Another major tick for the 3.2s is imaging which is in another league as you mentioned; really remarkable.

Crucially the 3.2s seem to work far better at lower volumes than the A3s do which, for me, is a major win as I've commented previously that the A3s only really seem to hit their stride when driving a little harder.

The A3s will be reconnected and run for a while in case I've been a little hasty in declaring preference for the 3.2s but I think I'll be running the 3.2s long-term, especially once they're actually set up properly where the A3s are. I don't plan to sell the A3s, they're incredible speakers and it with a potential move on the cards next year I may find they work better in a new home.

I very nearly ended up purchasing an Arcam FMJ D33 this month too but thankfully for my wallet someone else nipped in there and bought it. I still need to get some use out of my recapped M-DAC and I wasn't entirely convinced that the D33 would make a significant difference (the M-DAC remains a rather good bit of kit to this day) and it was just outside of the budget where I'd have thought "fk it, take a punt.." Also I should probably really stick with only one major change at a time and get used to the 3.2s a bit more before changing things up any further.

Another major thing to sort is a silent PC to run the FLAC front end as my existing PC is not quite silent and if I'm honest, could do with an upgrade anyway...

Thanks again for the input legzr1, it was very helpful and greatly appreciated.

Edited by Funk on Monday 1st November 11:07

[legzr1]

Pleased its working out for you, they are great speakers.

It seems fairly recent that I owned mine but, thinking back, it was over 13 years ago! So, my memory may be playing tricks with me but I’m sure the 3.2 came with a coup,e of user tweaks - there’s a removable hard plastic cover on the bottom of the cabinets designed to be filled with lead shot/arabites etc to add mass. This is supposed to ‘tune’ the cabinet and give a firmer physical foundation. Personally, I never bothered.

The second tweak (and apologies if you’re already aware) - they come with a rudimentary ‘boundary compensation circuit’ in the crossover. I’m sure all this does it take one of the bass drivers out of circuit when siting close to rear wall. You use one of the banana plug inputs on the bass section - unscrew, remove and reverse then refit. It does work and I ended up leaving mine ‘full bass’ then adjusted distance to rear wall to suit. I don’t think the 2X 8” drivers of the Kefs will ever match the depth of the A3s but I preferred the overall presentation of the Kefs when set up this way.

FLACs - one of the best things I ever did in decades of this ‘game’ of audio (and apologies for spending more of your money…) was to get all my ripped files off the pc/laptop and onto a NAS drive, place the NAS in a different room and run an Ethernet from router to source. Less clutter, less noise and a nicer interface with a tablet to control it all.

Have fun with the Kefs (and UniQ in particular). As I said, it’s been years since I had the 3.2 but I still remember vividly the first time I played a track and they simply disappeared. Plucked strings coming from metres beyond where the speakers where sited, a depth to the soundstage which seemed to reach behind the listener and all the things you’ve already mentioned.

[Funk]

Thanks legzr1, these do indeed have the boundary compensation device but the speakers are a fair distance from the side walls - that, combined with being front-ported only - seems to make them pretty unfussy when it comes to positioning which is handy.

Re. the FLAC stuff, the issue is the PC itself; it's not very noisy at all in real terms but it is still just about audible on quieter tracks. I'm loathe to buy a dedicated player which I'm almost certain won't sound any better and will be more of a pain to navigate/use compared with having MusicBee running on the main screen. I've been toying with a proper silent PC to replace my older one which is a little long in the tooth now:

https://www.monsterlabo.com/page-d-articles/extrem...

Edited by Funk on Monday 1st November 11:46