Cowon X7 vs AK120

[SGirl]

StuH said:

Arrange a day to try a few pairs out here - http://www.highendheadphones.co.uk - just make sure you have a fully loaded credit card

Aaaaagh!! I foresee a trip happening one of these days. Thanks, that looks like my kind of shop! <rummages down back of sofa for pennies>

StuH said:

The phones that work best with my AK are my Senn HD-800 and Audeze LCD-X.

If you want to spend less and given you want bright side of neutral you might like the B&O H6 - I always assumed B&O was style over substance but I came away very impressed when I demo'd - I just prefer a slightly richer sound signature. Oppo PM-3 are amazing value for money and can be had in open and closed back form - http://www.headfonia.com/oppo-pm-3-opus/

Great, thanks for the info - just the kind of thing I need to know. I'm going to go into town on Saturday and see what the two (well, three if you count Richer Sounds) shops have to offer. I'll bear these ones in mind and try them first. If they have them! I know one of them has the Sennheisers and one has the B&Os - not sure about the Audeze though.

Flip Martian said:

Glad you like it that much. Isn't it a pity you have to spend so much to get a device that manages all bases admirably...!

How does it compare against the X7? Does the X7 sound better on high bit rate MP3s than the 240 (re your comment about poor mp3 reproduction)? I couldn't honestly tell the difference on my old X7 between 320 mp3a and FLACs (this may well partly be down to my age-damaged hearing) - both sounded excellent to me and far better than anything else I'd used as a portable before.

It's a bit annoying, but it does reinforce my view that if you buy cheap, you buy twice! Although to be fair, the AK240 wasn't available when I bought my X7, and if I'd bought an AK120 I'd have only wanted to switch by now.

The UI is incredible on this thing. You can view tracks by artist, album, folder or playlist. You can create playlists on the fly. You can shuffle tracks, repeat tracks - the usual stuff. You can use a factory-defined equaliser or define your own. And you can even add lyrics if you're that way inclined. (For a singalong while you're on the bus, maybe??)

By way of comparison, I booted up my X7 the other day while the AK240 was charging. I remembered that it wasn't as good a UI or touchscreen, but I hadn't remembered it was quite as bad as it is. And that's with the 3rd-party UI updates applied.

Sound-wise, the AK240 is definitely more detailed. I was listening to a track I've heard a thousand times before, and right at the end I could hear - something. I wound it back (it has FF and REW functions too!) and listened again, and again. There was something on the recording which I've never heard before, extremely faint, like the sound of another track. It might well have been tape print-through because it was an old analogue recording. It's not important - but the point is, after all these years I finally found out it was there.

I couldn't tell much difference between high-bitrate MP3s and FLACs on the X7 either, although I haven't tried the same files that stopped me in my tracks (pun intended ) the other day. I played some VBR MP3s yesterday and there really wasn't difference. But there was a definite difference between the 320s I played by accident and the same thing I then tried in FLAC - it was very noticeable. I'll investigate further!

Oh, but one downside. Battery life compared to the X7 is pants. Still okay though - I managed almost 2 full working days before I was down to 4%. And that was with me messing with the device instead of letting it just play. When the battery is conditioned and I'm past the "must fiddle with everything" stage, it'll probably be better.

Finlandia said:

I'm not an expert on full size cans, but Hifiman have excellent sounding headphones and Sennheiser HD600 and HD650, not to mention the HD800 are universally praised, Shure SRH1540 has good press too, and as a left field choice, the Soundmagic HP100 is very good.

Most of the full sized are open back design though, but there are quite a few closed back ones too.

Oh, and don't forget to check this out: http://www.hdtracks.co.uk/

Another vote for Sennheisers! Thanks Finlandia, I'll check them out. I don't know if the local shops stock Hifiman, I'll ask them. I gather you have to go open-back for the best sound reproduction, but that always seems to me like missing the point of headphones. When I listen to music through headphones, it's because I don't want to disturb everyone else with my noise. But when I use open-backed ones, they get to share it anyway.

Thanks for the link, too - definitely worth a look! That's my afternoon sorted.

[telecat]

My Main System Headphones are a little "vintage". Stax Gamma Pro's with SRD-X energiser. Although I recently got fed up with "buds" for the PC and Iphone so splashed out on some B&W P7's. Trouble is using a Valve amp and Impulse Lali's spoils you a bit!

[Flip Martian]

Thanks for the update! Glad you're enjoying it. Does look like at that price point they were able to concentrate on total user experience and not just 1 or 2 areas of design. I guess Cowon are generally known for sound quality and battery life - however, that's at their price point (which I guess was ipod price range). For that they're fine (despite the godawful UI). I think the iBasso and rockbox combo will be mine in time for my summer hols anyway.

Are you listening to 24 bit FLACs or 16 bit on the new player? I just spent what seemed like months ripping CDs to 16 bit FLACs. There is 1 school of thought that says you only need 24 bit recording when in a recording studio as it gives you more headroom to play with - and for playback its a bit "Emperor's New Clothes". But I'm not an expert by any stretch...

[SGirl]

telecat said:

My Main System Headphones are a little "vintage". Stax Gamma Pro's with SRD-X energiser. Although I recently got fed up with "buds" for the PC and Iphone so splashed out on some B&W P7's. Trouble is using a Valve amp and Impulse Lali's spoils you a bit!

My Stax headphones still haven't arrived yet! Still, no rush I suppose. I know what you mean about being spoilt - I bought some music on iTunes a couple of years ago, played it back, thought it was okay but was looking forward to hearing it on CD and vinyl when it turned up in the post. But when it arrived, it sounded - fuzzy and certainly not much better than the MP3s I bought on iTunes. I was really disappointed.

Flip Martian said:

Thanks for the update! Glad you're enjoying it. Does look like at that price point they were able to concentrate on total user experience and not just 1 or 2 areas of design. I guess Cowon are generally known for sound quality and battery life - however, that's at their price point (which I guess was ipod price range). For that they're fine (despite the godawful UI). I think the iBasso and rockbox combo will be mine in time for my summer hols anyway.

Yes, I agree. They've done a proper job on this one, it's great. Finally found a small flaw, though - if you're copying multiple folders from PC to device and you find a folder that already exists, you have the usual "overwrite yes/no" option. If you select "no, just ignore it and carry on", it doesn't seem to copy the rest of the folders either. So saying you don't want to overwrite what's there stops the copy completely. But if that's the worst it can do, I can live with that!

I was thinking about the X7 last night while I was listening to the AK240. It's a completely different experience. The poor UI really does render it fairly unusable. The sound quality is excellent, but it's not much use unless it makes your music accessible as well. I can't even remember the last time I put the X7 on while I read a book, but the AK240 makes all the difference because if you fancy listening to something else, swapping to a different album or folder doesn't require a massive effort. The only problem is that the AK240 is so detailed that you can't help but stop and listen to things properly, I discovered a very quiet count-in for a piano track on a song yesterday!

Let us know how you get on with the iBasso/Rockbox. And just out of curiosity, what headphones are you using?

Flip Martian said:

Are you listening to 24 bit FLACs or 16 bit on the new player? I just spent what seemed like months ripping CDs to 16 bit FLACs. There is 1 school of thought that says you only need 24 bit recording when in a recording studio as it gives you more headroom to play with - and for playback its a bit "Emperor's New Clothes". But I'm not an expert by any stretch...

16-bit mostly. I have some 24-bit ones, but they were ripped from vinyl and I think if I'm going to put up with turntable rumble and the occasional pop, I may as well just go and listen to vinyl and be done with it. I don't think I have any 24-bit rips from CD. I'm going to have a play over the weekend with the HDStore link that Finlandia posted the other day, I'll report back if I can think of anything interesting to say about it.

[telecat]

A lot of the problems with CD's are caused by the final mix being too "loud". A classic example is Muse's "2nd Law". The 24/96 FLAC version is a lot nicer to listen to than the CD. Lookup "Loudness wars" for the full explanation.

[Flip Martian]

SGirl said:

Let us know how you get on with the iBasso/Rockbox. And just out of curiosity, what headphones are you using?

Nothing fancy - Sennheiser PX 200 for wandering around a lot/train commute etc. I find them excellent for the price. Occasionally I use my studio headphones - Sennheiser HD280 Pros. Very neutral they are (but bulky for mobile use).

I did have a think about the 24 bit rip question - it must be pointless ripping CDs at 24 bit as aren't CDs 16 bit tech? Probably more of an argument to rip vinyl at 24 bit - or buy 24 bit files if one has a mind to.

[SGirl]

Flip Martian said:

Nothing fancy - Sennheiser PX 200 for wandering around a lot/train commute etc. I find them excellent for the price. Occasionally I use my studio headphones - Sennheiser HD280 Pros. Very neutral they are (but bulky for mobile use).

I used to have PX200s, I think. Or something very similar to them, anyway. Haven't seen them for ages - I suspect our son may have wandered off with them at some point!

I ended up forking out for the Sennheiser HD800s over the weekend. (Nearly ended up buying a Hugo too! But fortunately I couldn't audition it because we didn't have the right cable to hand.) I tried the HD700s in one shop but they hadn't been run in, so they were weedy and 'orrible. So we went elsewhere and compared the HD700s (run-in!) with the HD800s, and there wasn't much comparison really. So that was that.

Flip Martian said:

I did have a think about the 24 bit rip question - it must be pointless ripping CDs at 24 bit as aren't CDs 16 bit tech? Probably more of an argument to rip vinyl at 24 bit - or buy 24 bit files if one has a mind to.

I had a play with some 24-bit files over the weekend - can't really hear a lot of difference between those and 16-bit rips, to be honest. Vinyl rips at 24-bit are good, though. Insofar as vinyl rips are ever "good". It's handy to be able to rip tracks from vinyl which simply isn't available in a digital format though.

[Podie]

The 24/96 of Nirvana's Nevermind sounds great on my Fiio X3, but Soundgarden's Superunknown in 24/192 is even better

[Flip Martian]

Podie said:

The 24/96 of Nirvana's Nevermind sounds great on my Fiio X3, but Soundgarden's Superunknown in 24/192 is even better

Both will be a conversion from the original masters, I suspect then? Probably best to see those editions as a higher quality alternative to CDs, rather than trying to rip CDs at 24 bit.

[Flip Martian]

SGirl said:

I ended up forking out for the Sennheiser HD800s over the weekend. (Nearly ended up buying a Hugo too! But fortunately I couldn't audition it because we didn't have the right cable to hand.) I tried the HD700s in one shop but they hadn't been run in, so they were weedy and 'orrible. So we went elsewhere and compared the HD700s (run-in!) with the HD800s, and there wasn't much comparison really. So that was that.

I just looked them up. *cough* I'm very glad business is going well!

[SGirl]

Podie said:

The 24/96 of Nirvana's Nevermind sounds great on my Fiio X3, but Soundgarden's Superunknown in 24/192 is even better

Podie, have you heard "lower-grade" rips of the albums as well? How do they compare? 24/192 - I didn't even know such a thing was possible. You learn something new every day!

Where do such high quality rips come from, if it's not a daft question? Are they bundled with CDs or do you rip the files yourself?

Flip Martian said:

Both will be a conversion from the original masters, I suspect then? Probably best to see those editions as a higher quality alternative to CDs, rather than trying to rip CDs at 24 bit.

I wonder how acetates would sound when ripped to 24-bit? I shall find out - I've forked out for a USB turntable as well, I've got loads of good albums that I can't get anywhere in digital format so I've got fed up waiting. I'm going to make my own files.

Flip Martian said:

I just looked them up. *cough* I'm very glad business is going well!

Business is going so well that time is in short supply, hence the purchase of something that I can use while I work. A good accountant helps, too, but I don't think the firm I use are any good at ripping FLAC files.

[Flip Martian]

SGirl said:

I wonder how acetates would sound when ripped to 24-bit? I shall find out - I've forked out for a USB turntable as well, I've got loads of good albums that I can't get anywhere in digital format so I've got fed up waiting. I'm going to make my own files.

Would depend on the condition of the acetate - they wear far quicker than vinyl (as they were only intended for "test pressing" use). But in theory it should sound as good as ripping vinyl.

Would this be a high quality USB turntable costing squillions of quid? The regular ones one buys from PC World et al are usually crap and no match for a decent turntable and A/D converters. I use an old regular turntable (which really needs replacing and a feed out to a soundcard, then line ins to my PC.

Probably why I don't do much ripping these days...its a bit faffy and I don't have the time!

[telecat]

Currently there are a few Places to get them as well as Blu-ray Audio discs. Sony have a few links on their site http://www.sony.co.uk/electronics/hi-res-audio-mus... and there is HDTracks providing you can find a way around their Location validation. Some sites also use SACD and Super SACD files. If you like Disc playing then the Japanese still produce a remakably broad selection of SACD's with Queen's and Roxy Music's back catalogue recently being released. The HUGO is actually 32 bit 384 Kilohertz capable. Robert Watts designs Chords DAC's and has a design philosophy he has persued since his ownership of Deltec Precision Audio.

[Podie]

SGirl said:

Podie said:

The 24/96 of Nirvana's Nevermind sounds great on my Fiio X3, but Soundgarden's Superunknown in 24/192 is even better

Podie, have you heard "lower-grade" rips of the albums as well? How do they compare? 24/192 - I didn't even know such a thing was possible. You learn something new every day!

Where do such high quality rips come from, if it's not a daft question? Are they bundled with CDs or do you rip the files yourself?

Yep, I've listened to many versions of the same album, from MP3 to FLAC, and then different bitrates.

With Superunknown I had a 16/44 FLAC taken from the CD. GregE240 (who is a bit of a whizz at this) then did a rip from a DVD I had to give 24/96 of the same album. I've then purchased the 24/192 from Qobuz. In answer, yes I can hear a difference between the three versions - although the 16/44 was a different master to the other two (which were the 20th Anniversary edition).

Qobux seem to have the most stuff that appeals to me, but I have looked at HDtracks.

GregE240 did some DVD rips for me, which are better than CDs. The downside can be that you get the talking in between - such as Nirvana's Unplugged which features them messing about between tracks, but you can either bin these or skip them if you wish.

[SGirl]

Flip Martian said:

Would depend on the condition of the acetate - they wear far quicker than vinyl (as they were only intended for "test pressing" use). But in theory it should sound as good as ripping vinyl.

Yep. That's the problem - all my acetates are a bit old. But it's worth a go anyway, if only because one of them contains a mix which was never released commercially.

Flip Martian said:

Would this be a high quality USB turntable costing squillions of quid? The regular ones one buys from PC World et al are usually crap and no match for a decent turntable and A/D converters. I use an old regular turntable (which really needs replacing and a feed out to a soundcard, then line ins to my PC.

Nah, an Audio Technica USB turntable thingy. I've got my decent turntable set up exactly the way I want it now, I'm not about to go moving it around to go plugging in extra cables and whatnot. I bought a cheap USB turntable a couple of years ago, it was a real faff ripping stuff to it and I never listen to the files because they're all rubbish.

Flip Martian said:

Probably why I don't do much ripping these days...its a bit faffy and I don't have the time!

This is just the problem. But I've got so much stuff that's not available on CD that I've got to just get on with it at some point.

telecat said:

Currently there are a few Places to get them as well as Blu-ray Audio discs. Sony have a few links on their site http://www.sony.co.uk/electronics/hi-res-audio-mus... and there is HDTracks providing you can find a way around their Location validation. Some sites also use SACD and Super SACD files. If you like Disc playing then the Japanese still produce a remakably broad selection of SACD's with Queen's and Roxy Music's back catalogue recently being released. The HUGO is actually 32 bit 384 Kilohertz capable. Robert Watts designs Chords DAC's and has a design philosophy he has persued since his ownership of Deltec Precision Audio.

Thanks Telecat, I'll have a look. I think I own one SACD! I ought to get some more. (Queen and Roxy Music might be worth an update...) Thanks for the info on the Hugo, too - handy to know it's 32-bit capable.

Podie said:

Yep, I've listened to many versions of the same album, from MP3 to FLAC, and then different bitrates.

With Superunknown I had a 16/44 FLAC taken from the CD. GregE240 (who is a bit of a whizz at this) then did a rip from a DVD I had to give 24/96 of the same album. I've then purchased the 24/192 from Qobuz. In answer, yes I can hear a difference between the three versions - although the 16/44 was a different master to the other two (which were the 20th Anniversary edition).

Sounds interesting! I'll have to have a closer look at this when I have more time. I'm not sure yet what software to use for ripping - I'm using Foobar at the moment, which is pretty good on the whole.

Podie said:

Qobux seem to have the most stuff that appeals to me, but I have looked at HDtracks.

GregE240 did some DVD rips for me, which are better than CDs. The downside can be that you get the talking in between - such as Nirvana's Unplugged which features them messing about between tracks, but you can either bin these or skip them if you wish.

DVD rips? I definitely have some reading-up to do.

[Flip Martian]

There is DVD audio ripping software out there - I've had something for years that was recommended me. Although I used it so rarely its not even on my current PC. But its worth googling.

[telecat]

I have to reveal I am a fan of Watt's designs. I have had his DAC's since the PDM MK1 and bought one of his early FPGA designs, the DPA SX128. I currently have a DAC64 and am waiting to see what the replacement for the QBD76 is like. He no longer uses conventional DAC Chips but designs the chip and then rather than converting it to a manufactured Chip "runs" it as a program on "Field-programable Gate Arrays". The upshot is that he can turn around the design pretty quickly. The downside is that comparatively it loads slowly. THE FPGA's these days are very powerful so it's not an issue and the ancillaries can be run as well.

[Podie]

Thought I'd give this a cheeky bump...

At the end of September the Fiio X3 went, and was replaced by an AK100 AK Jr - which I'm delighted with. Quite a substantial upgrade over the Fiio.

Contemplating upgrading my headphones from Shure SE425 to SE535, but reviews leave me unsure if it's worthwhile... thoughts?


SGirl - what did you end up purchasing?


ETA - correction - AK Jr!

Edited by Podie on Wednesday 20th January 12:56

[Finlandia]

While the SE535 are very good, they are quite analytical, bordering on clinical. I haven't heard the SE425 myself, but as I understand it, they are more dynamic, better oomph in the bass region and warmer sounding than the SE535.

Westone UMPRO30 or UMPRO40 for a more flat and professionally tuned sound or Westone W30 or W40 for a more consumer oriented V shaped sound, or then my old favourite, Phonak PFE232, if you can find one, would be very good contenders.

Sennheiser IE800 has received very good press, and if you can hold on for a moment more, the brand new MEE Audio Pinnacle can rearrange the list too.

[Podie]

Finlandia said:

While the SE535 are very good, they are quite analytical, bordering on clinical. I haven't heard the SE425 myself, but as I understand it, they are more dynamic, better oomph in the bass region and warmer sounding than the SE535.

Westone UMPRO30 or UMPRO40 for a more flat and professionally tuned sound or Westone W30 or W40 for a more consumer oriented V shaped sound, or then my old favourite, Phonak PFE232, if you can find one, would be very good contenders.

Sennheiser IE800 has received very good press, and if you can hold on for a moment more, the brand new MEE Audio Pinnacle can rearrange the list too.

Not in a huge hurry. I love the SE425s, but they could do with a touch tighter bass. They were vastly improved with the Westone star tips though.

Never managed to find the Phonaks, but all the reviews are brilliant.