Adding a turntable to a fairly high end HiFi system: Help me

[kingston12]

TorqueDirty said:

Thanks for the excellent responses folks!

Very useful to know that the mastering on LPs is often equally poor, in addition to vinyl clearly being harder to get hold of.

I do love the idea of having a beautiful looking turntable to complement the rest of the system, but I'm pretty sure that it would not get a great deal of use - hence the relatively sensible budget.

However, you lot have definitely piqued my interest in the whole streaming thing as well. I had always discounted it on the assumption that the sound quality would be crap but I suspect things have moved on a lot recently.

Are there really systems out the now that would offer me the same quality as a really well mastered and recorded CD? If so then this is certainly something I'd like to explore, particularly since I'd like to expand on the variety of stuff I listen to. What sort of money are we talking about for the kit and a subscription?

TD

The kit shouldn't cost too much. I have got a Mac Mini going into a Denon DAC that I paid £200 for, and it sounds at least as good as I can remember CD sounding.

I never really got on with CD as a format, so I jumped into streaming as soon as I could. I have got my whole CD collection at my fingertips, that is quite a few thousand albums that I would have had to store and maintain rather than just chuck in a box.

I still buy CDs from Amazon Marketplace for £0.01 (about £1 after postage), but they are just ripped and put in the box straight away. It is cheaper and better quality than downloading compressed files.

Granted, vinyl is much more of a faff even than CD, but I enjoy it so I will make an exception.

My main use for my digital collection is on a portable or in the car, so it is complimented by Spotify at 320kps which is absolutely fine for this purpose. Better quality is available from Quboz or Tidal if you want it as your main source.

As I said, I use vinyl almost 100% at home, but the sheer cost of building a collection again would probably send me down the streaming only route.

[sparkyhx]

Brian Trizers said:

...and then if you decide vinyl's not for you, you should be able to sell it for as much as you paid for it - or as near as makes no difference. Not so with new kit.

what he said.

[sparkyhx]

kingston12 said:

I was an early Sonos adopter, and it was one of the things that drove me back to vinyl!

I love the idea of it, but the reality is that I spend more time trouble-shooting why it isn't working than enjoying the music. I have been through several routers and wireless set-ups and I still get drop-outs.

I think it is due to the fact that I live in a built up area. The support is very good, but I think I will scream if I hear the words 'Unplug all of your network devices, reboot your router and connect everything up in this order' again. Sorry, too much hassle just to listen to music.

Sonos still provides my music in kitchen/bedrooms etc, but the Connect is unplugged from my main system now and have been replaced by a Mac Mini running Audirvana. I actually don't use it that much, but it sounds good, is easy to control and at £500 is a hell of a lot cheaper than setting up my vinyl rig and collection again. That's what I'd do if starting again, but then if the OP has the vinyl itch.....

unusual - you using Apple kit somewhere in the original equation - cos that was probably the source of the problem. I've heard too many problems with Sonos and apple combinations.

I've had mine 3 x Play 5 + connect and never had a drop out..........and I mean never. I'm using Synology NAS as source with android mobile/tablet access and Windows laptop + desktop. When everyone is in the house there are 7-12 devices up and running with potential access/control.

[kingston12]

sparkyhx said:

unusual - you using Apple kit somewhere in the original equation - cos that was probably the source of the problem. I've heard too many problems with Sonos and apple combinations.

I've had mine 3 x Play 5 + connect and never had a drop out..........and I mean never. I'm using Synology NAS as source with android mobile/tablet access and Windows laptop + desktop. When everyone is in the house there are 7-12 devices up and running with potential access/control.

Yes. My Sonos has to deal with a lot of Apple kit, so if that does cause issues, it is little wonder I have problems.

My router is Apple, Sonos takes it's music library from an iMac, and is controlled by iMac/iPhone/iPad.

Most of the people that I know who have similar issues with Sonos also have Apple kit, so I wouldn't be surprised if there is something in it!

[Rick101]

OP, I had a similar thought a few weeks ago. Also have a few grand in a Hi-Fi system but my only knowledge of vinyl was my Dad's old system as a kid.

Managed to get a used Rega RP2 from a dealer with a few nice upgrades. Saved quite a bit over buying new. Dealer serviced and ready to go. Purchased a new Phono amp of similar quality to my other gear. Spent what I'd saved on buying some records.

Really enjoy it. It's wonderful to see a physical, analogue disc in perfect motion translating to a fantastic sound coming from your speakers. The extra work in using a record player makes the reward of listening that much sweeter, wish I'd done it years ago. Def my favorite bit of kit despite only having a small collection of records.

[TorqueDirty]

Rick101 said:

OP, I had a similar thought a few weeks ago. Also have a few grand in a Hi-Fi system but my only knowledge of vinyl was my Dad's old system as a kid.

Managed to get a used Rega RP2 from a dealer with a few nice upgrades. Saved quite a bit over buying new. Dealer serviced and ready to go. Purchased a new Phono amp of similar quality to my other gear. Spent what I'd saved on buying some records.

Really enjoy it. It's wonderful to see a physical, analogue disc in perfect motion translating to a fantastic sound coming from your speakers. The extra work in using a record player makes the reward of listening that much sweeter, wish I'd done it years ago. Def my favorite bit of kit despite only having a small collection of records.

Good to hear this.

Yes, I do like the rather ceremonial aspect of using Vinyl along with it being a much more sensorily rewarding process. I'm a sucker for a nice bit of design and elegant engineering so the visual reward of watching a beautiful deck spinning away on top of a lovely hi-fi rack does definitely appeal.

Anyone got any thoughts on this one foe sale on Ebay. Looks great but who knows if the prototype plinth is actually any good. Thoughts very welcome.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rega-Planar-3-with-Upgra...

Cheers
TD

[ASK1974]

kingston12 said:

Yes. My Sonos has to deal with a lot of Apple kit, so if that does cause issues, it is little wonder I have problems.

My router is Apple, Sonos takes it's music library from an iMac, and is controlled by iMac/iPhone/iPad.

Most of the people that I know who have similar issues with Sonos also have Apple kit, so I wouldn't be surprised if there is something in it!

Just out of interest when you say your router is Apple can you clarify? What is providing your ADSL connection? BT home hub, Virgin? If you have two devices on your network with routing enabled you'll be suffering from double NAT and this plays havock with Sonos. I have a Sky Modem/Router then everything else is Apple; Mac Mini hosting library, time machine (extending Wi-Fi), iMac, iOS for control etc. and it's worked flawlessly since day one.

Most problems with Sonos are network related and nothing to do with Sonos's operational stability.

[Brian Trizers]

ASK1974 said:

Most problems with Sonos are network related and nothing to do with Sonos's operational stability.

That's my experience too. My system uses the new Bridge-less topology, and gave me no trouble until I added the Connect and thought it would be a good idea to plug it into the Ethernet switch that feeds the other kit in that room. That's when the connection problems began; what seems to have fixed them is a change to channel 6 for Sonosnet (recommended by Sonos support) and going back to full wireless.

[kingston12]

ASK1974 said:

Just out of interest when you say your router is Apple can you clarify? What is providing your ADSL connection? BT home hub, Virgin? If you have two devices on your network with routing enabled you'll be suffering from double NAT and this plays havock with Sonos. I have a Sky Modem/Router then everything else is Apple; Mac Mini hosting library, time machine (extending Wi-Fi), iMac, iOS for control etc. and it's worked flawlessly since day one.

Most problems with Sonos are network related and nothing to do with Sonos's operational stability.

It is an Apple Airport Extreme connected to a Virgin Media modem (not hub).

[legzr1]

TorqueDirty said:

Good to hear this.

Yes, I do like the rather ceremonial aspect of using Vinyl along with it being a much more sensorily rewarding process. I'm a sucker for a nice bit of design and elegant engineering so the visual reward of watching a beautiful deck spinning away on top of a lovely hi-fi rack does definitely appeal.

Anyone got any thoughts on this one foe sale on Ebay. Looks great but who knows if the prototype plinth is actually any good. Thoughts very welcome.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rega-Planar-3-with-Upgra...

Cheers
TD

I get the whole 'touchy feely' thing with vinyl, really I do - I even have a perfectly serviceable turntable in a spare room (AR EB101 that I bought new almost 30 years ago - eek!) but my vinyl 'collection' is equally dated and in far worse condition so it rarely gets used - last time was 6 years ago when my daughter found an album and screamed to the missus " Mam, look at the size of this CD I've found!" - would have been rude not to demonstrate what dragging a cheap bit of rock across a plastic disc does

That being said, it can sound 'nice' and if the visuals interest you then I suggest pushing out the boat and get something like a Gyrodec - not cheap on the used market bit will always hold their value - who knows, you might be converted!

Streaming - as I mentioned earlier (I think...) I use the same 308 system of pre/power/CD - coup,e of years ago I went down the streaming route.
Started with a WD NAS feeding a Pinoeer N50 streamer and it was good. Not perfect sound wise but showed the convienience of such a system.
I'm now using a CA stream magic 6 being fed by a Synology NAS - now I've got massive storage space, great sound quality and excellent convienience all at a decent price.

The MF 308 CD player is a great piece of kit - since getting the CA/NAS combo I've powered it up three times to play CDs that wouldn't rip correctly...


Worth thinking about IMHO.

Enjoy the ride

[ASK1974]

kingston12 said:

It is an Apple Airport Extreme connected to a Virgin Media modem (not hub).

Interesting, I wasn't aware that Virgin had a modem only product. You can put their Super Hub in 'modem only' mode and we've seen lots of people make the mistake of not activating this when they have a second router, but this doesn't sound like your problem. Can't think why this doesn't work for you but then again we've never relied on Apple devices as routers, I'd replace routing responsibility with something like a Draytek V2860 and just use the AirPort Extreme as a Wireless gateway (turn off its router). We have lots of Sonos systems in the field with this type of config and they work fine.

[RichB]

Most people concentrating on the 'tech' in this thread but TD has said he does not currently have any vinyl and I see that as more of an issue. I am approaching 60 and have around 300 albums from the 60s & 70s ranging from The Beatles to Captain Beefheart with everything in between! I am fortunate in that I was always rather obsessive bout music and looked after my LPs but I wonder if young people who have not grown up with vinyl realise how easily the media gets scratched? Even a speck of dust causes crackle & pop and I guess those of us old enough all remember the "Dust Bug" !

My brother (older than me) still collects vinyl from specialist shops but is often disappointed with the quality of the records even though he is paying £20-£30 a piece. I just couldn't put up with the feeling of being ripped off like this, I would expect perfection but be disappointed. Starting from scratch will be a very different prospect to getting a good turntable in order to get the best out of a treasured record collection from ones youth.

[Riff Raff]

RichB said:

Most people concentrating on the 'tech' in this thread but TD has said he does not currently have any vinyl and I see that as more of an issue. .............

Starting from scratch will be a very different prospect to getting a good turntable in order to get the best out of a treasured record collection from ones youth.

Leading on from that, I suppose one has to ask the question whether or not a complete novice to vinyl would know whether or not he or she had bought a complete dog of a second hand turntable. The obvious things that spring to mind are whether or not the arm (or cartridge if it comes with one) are damaged in any way - arm bearings tend to be quite delicate and so obviously are styli and cantilevers.

Buying a turntable isn't as plug and play as buying a CD player or plugging in a streamer. There's a lot of setting up and checking and fine tuning involved. Which, for me, is part of the fun. I've just spent the better part of a couple of days fine tuning the set up on one of my turntables after swapping out the arm. There's no rocket science involved, but it can be a bit fiddly. Anyway. If the OP knows anyone who has a bit of experience setting up a turntable, it would be worthwhile getting them to give the thing a once over once installed.

[NicD]

Riff Raff said:

Leading on from that, I suppose one has to ask the question whether or not a complete novice to vinyl would know whether or not he or she had bought a complete dog of a second hand turntable. The obvious things that spring to mind are whether or not the arm (or cartridge if it comes with one) are damaged in any way - arm bearings tend to be quite delicate and so obviously are styli and cantilevers.

Buying a turntable isn't as plug and play as buying a CD player or plugging in a streamer. There's a lot of setting up and checking and fine tuning involved. Which, for me, is part of the fun. I've just spent the better part of a couple of days fine tuning the set up on one of my turntables after swapping out the arm. There's no rocket science involved, but it can be a bit fiddly. Anyway. If the OP knows anyone who has a bit of experience setting up a turntable, it would be worthwhile getting them to give the thing a once over once installed.

Yep, that is why I ditched my LP12 back in the 90's.Too much faf.

[fulgurex]

NicD said:

Yep, that is why I ditched my LP12 back in the 90's.Too much faf.

Have to agree with that. I sold my Goldmund Studio plus 5000 lp records 10 years ago: just too much faff

My dcs CD player hasn't spun a disk in over 2 years: again too much faff.

Streaming is so easy and Tidal and Qobus gives me such a wide choice of music

[NicD]

I have used iTunes lossless till now, just looking at Qobuz but most tracks seem 16 bit?

I like Dance/trance but want as high bit rate as possible. Any suggestions?

[Brian Trizers]

Supposing for the moment that hi-def mastering does reveal more detail, would that sort of music benefit? More detail tends to give a better impression of acoustics and the space the players are in. None of this applies to stuff out of the back of a computer, so what are you gaining?

[Crackie]

NicD said:

I have used iTunes lossless till now, just looking at Qobuz but most tracks seem 16 bit?

I like Dance/trance but want as high bit rate as possible. Any suggestions?

Why do you want as high bit rate as possible ?

[NicD]

Crackie said:

Why do you want as high bit rate as possible ?

If I am paying for HiRes, I want it to be HiRes and not 16 bit/CD quality

[davepoth]

NicD said:

Crackie said:

Why do you want as high bit rate as possible ?

If I am paying for HiRes, I want it to be HiRes and not 16 bit/CD quality

On the assumption that the music you listen to has been produced digitally, there's no guarantee it was produced at a bit rate that would require anything better.