Discussion
Hi-Fi has always been a fairly niche enthusiast market, but I don't think it's dead. The market doesn't really innovate but it doesn't need to. Speakers are speakers and amplifiers are amplifiers.
It's easier than ever to get cheap "reasonably decent"-sounding music with devices supporting Spotify and Airplay but you can pry my Kef/Audiolab/Meridian 2-ch setup from my cold dead hands.
It's easier than ever to get cheap "reasonably decent"-sounding music with devices supporting Spotify and Airplay but you can pry my Kef/Audiolab/Meridian 2-ch setup from my cold dead hands.
I don't think it's dead as such. It's just the way people buy music these days is different. With iPods, phones that could hold my full music collection, spotify etc. it's just a lot easier to plug it into an iPod dock etc.
The cost doesn't help either. I have a Yamaha amp, Yamaha CD player and Yamaha nsf700 floorstanders. I love it. My ex used to too until I told her how much it cost. She made a good point in saying that you can buy a perfectly decent midi system for less than a quarter of the price.
Now I know there would be quite a difference in SQ but unless that is "your thing" it doesn't matter. Like any other hobby I guess.
The cost doesn't help either. I have a Yamaha amp, Yamaha CD player and Yamaha nsf700 floorstanders. I love it. My ex used to too until I told her how much it cost. She made a good point in saying that you can buy a perfectly decent midi system for less than a quarter of the price.
Now I know there would be quite a difference in SQ but unless that is "your thing" it doesn't matter. Like any other hobby I guess.
Disastrous said:
That's not a bad idea!
I seem to remember a company (was it Linn?) offering an iTunes rival in the form of 'studio master' bit rate recording for playback on their new digital systems...never heard much beyond a one page ad in Sound on Sound IIRC so no idea if it went anywhere. I rather suspect it didn't, and lost out heavily to iTunes in terms of convenience and file size but it sounded like a step towards your suggestion...but this was a streaming thing, rather than a physical product like you suggest.
There are a few audiophile labels that offer limited run pressing of albums that have been mastered for hi-fi, I have a few and they've always sounded glorious. Linn still make the odd one but they seem to cater for the classical and jazz markets which generally sounded great anyway.I seem to remember a company (was it Linn?) offering an iTunes rival in the form of 'studio master' bit rate recording for playback on their new digital systems...never heard much beyond a one page ad in Sound on Sound IIRC so no idea if it went anywhere. I rather suspect it didn't, and lost out heavily to iTunes in terms of convenience and file size but it sounded like a step towards your suggestion...but this was a streaming thing, rather than a physical product like you suggest.
Hi-fi isn't dead, but it's slowly dying. Most of the large British manufacturers from the eighties seem to have either been bought out by chains like Richer Sounds, to be re-branded as affordable products owned by that brand. It's a similar strategy to Sports Direct and others.
Other brands have moved quickly towards the new markets of home cinema and smartphone based audio. The problem is that people are more cynical about BS, sorry I meant marketing, these days. Also consumers have never been better informed, and they're more selective. Many won't pay a premium for a product unless it is demonstrably better, or it looks good to them. See the amount of teenagers with their colourful, fun but average performing headphones as a guide for this trend. It's like the eighties never ended.
Most cheap hi-fi speakers are decent and flat-ish, the main differences are bass extension below 100hz and the maximum volume before significant distortion. Headphones still massively vary in sound quality, even amongst the pro and audiophile brands, but decent flat-ish hi-fi or PC speakers can be bought for less than £75. Decent flat-ish headphones can be bought for less than £100, but prices are frequently ludicrous compared to the actual cost to the manufacturer.
If there's one thing that learning about hi-fi products has taught me, it's that the retail price of many products has little correlation with actual technical performance, unless that technical performance is common knowledge and drives sales. For examples of near perfect price to performance markets you'd look at something like graphics cards, for the opposite you'd look at something like speaker cables, or shoes!
Other brands have moved quickly towards the new markets of home cinema and smartphone based audio. The problem is that people are more cynical about BS, sorry I meant marketing, these days. Also consumers have never been better informed, and they're more selective. Many won't pay a premium for a product unless it is demonstrably better, or it looks good to them. See the amount of teenagers with their colourful, fun but average performing headphones as a guide for this trend. It's like the eighties never ended.
Most cheap hi-fi speakers are decent and flat-ish, the main differences are bass extension below 100hz and the maximum volume before significant distortion. Headphones still massively vary in sound quality, even amongst the pro and audiophile brands, but decent flat-ish hi-fi or PC speakers can be bought for less than £75. Decent flat-ish headphones can be bought for less than £100, but prices are frequently ludicrous compared to the actual cost to the manufacturer.
If there's one thing that learning about hi-fi products has taught me, it's that the retail price of many products has little correlation with actual technical performance, unless that technical performance is common knowledge and drives sales. For examples of near perfect price to performance markets you'd look at something like graphics cards, for the opposite you'd look at something like speaker cables, or shoes!
loudlashadjuster said:
castex said:
loudlashadjuster said:
I think "proper" hi-fi will always be around, and will have advocates here and elsewhere, but its time really has passed.
I'm guessing that the music you think you like is the wrong music for you right now.It was the above together with the part where you fear for the future of HiFi if someone like you loses interest in it. I was suggesting that musical taste can change without one even being aware of it, and that the right new-to-you music might help you rediscover your love of it all. Of really listening.
Sorry if it came across as rude or dismissive - not my intention.
Howard- said:
.... but you can pry my Kef/Audiolab/Meridian 2-ch setup from my cold dead hands.
Excellent taste 
Just sat down for the first time in a while in the correct chair with the curtains closed for a little listening.
HiFi certainly isn't dead in this household and I'd recommend all the posters on this thread take responsibility to educate the next generation in the forgotten art of appreciating the effort that goes into producing some of the music we love and it's power to stir emotion at a deeper level.
I bought my (at the time) 10 year old son some second hand Mission speakers and Cambridge amp for a total of about £30. He uses his computer as a source but even with the MP3 limitation it knocks anything he had previously into a cocked hat. He loves it and it generates much discussion among his friends that visit so maybe it can have a wider influence! I now get to shout up stairs in Dad mode telling him to turn it down
I'm about to do the same for my daughter of similar age as she was playing the new Adele track to me the other day through the computer speakers and I couldn't bear the pain of the tinny noise coming from her room, and that's not just because it was Adele.
castex said:
It was the above together with the part where you fear for the future of HiFi if someone like you loses interest in it. I was suggesting that musical taste can change without one even being aware of it, and that the right new-to-you music might help you rediscover your love of it all. Of really listening.
Sorry if it came across as rude or dismissive - not my intention.
I can see why re-reading the whole post you got that impression, but the last statement was really about the industry and commercial market for hi-fi.
I take your point about exposure to new music - tastes generally broaden with age, no doubt about that - and there may be an element of that in me, but the main problem with me now is time. Discovery via Spotify etc. is actually increasing the amount of new music I listen to nowadays, from a historic lull since my early 30s and kids etc., so maybe in time I will find new music worthy of spending time with.
Definitely still alive and kicking in our house - the more I listen to mp3's and other music on my phone, the more I enjoy my set up when I get home. Currently in my office I have
Marantz PM-66 KI-Signature AMP
Marantz CD63 MK-II KI Signature CD Player
Rodgers db101 Speakers
Still sounds fantastic to this day, and blows any All In One Bose Sounddock or Sonos System out of the water as far as quality is concerned. Sadly these days it spends most of it's time playing mp3's from my PC, as the CD Player is getting ridiculously picky about what CD's it will actually play from start to finish. I'm trying a brand new CD as we type with not a mark on it, and it's randomly stopped after a read error on track 15 :/
I've tried getting mp3's from Google Play instead of buying CD's, always end up buying the same music on CD a couple of weeks later to hear how it should really sound.
Marantz PM-66 KI-Signature AMP
Marantz CD63 MK-II KI Signature CD Player
Rodgers db101 Speakers
Still sounds fantastic to this day, and blows any All In One Bose Sounddock or Sonos System out of the water as far as quality is concerned. Sadly these days it spends most of it's time playing mp3's from my PC, as the CD Player is getting ridiculously picky about what CD's it will actually play from start to finish. I'm trying a brand new CD as we type with not a mark on it, and it's randomly stopped after a read error on track 15 :/
I've tried getting mp3's from Google Play instead of buying CD's, always end up buying the same music on CD a couple of weeks later to hear how it should really sound.
MP3, if it's at 320kbps can sound nice but a lot of players are a bit nasty, the Sonos kit I've heard isn't great.
I still have an old Marantz Mk1 CD17 which feeds a PM17 which I've always liked the sound of, sure it'll not play HD but it's OK, I also have a Pioneer N50A for streaming MP3 music from my computer, and for the most part it sounds just as good as the Marantz.
If I want to listen to something 'properly' then I'll always put on a record but as that's not always convenient or possible then the Pioneer gets the gig.
I still have an old Marantz Mk1 CD17 which feeds a PM17 which I've always liked the sound of, sure it'll not play HD but it's OK, I also have a Pioneer N50A for streaming MP3 music from my computer, and for the most part it sounds just as good as the Marantz.
If I want to listen to something 'properly' then I'll always put on a record but as that's not always convenient or possible then the Pioneer gets the gig.
dmsims said:
All those people who think Sonos is fantastic should go to Hearsavers
It's overpriced tat
The thing is, for equivalent money they are miles better than what you used to get in the 80s and 90s walking into Argos, Dixons or Laskys, hence why so many are delighted.It's overpriced tat
Ultimately, the quality (and convenience, discovery) of a Sonos etc. exceeds the threshold that used to force many to seek out better quality alternatives - resulting in the purchase of separates, normally - meaning the narrowing of the market for "real" hifi.
The fewer people have exposure to proper hifi, the fewer make the leap to deciding they want their own so it's ever decreasing circles, to a point.
bodhi said:
Definitely still alive and kicking in our house - the more I listen to mp3's and other music on my phone, the more I enjoy my set up when I get home. Currently in my office I have
Marantz PM-66 KI-Signature AMP
Marantz CD63 MK-II KI Signature CD Player
Rodgers db101 Speakers
Still sounds fantastic to this day, and blows any All In One Bose Sounddock or Sonos System out of the water as far as quality is concerned. Sadly these days it spends most of it's time playing mp3's from my PC, as the CD Player is getting ridiculously picky about what CD's it will actually play from start to finish. I'm trying a brand new CD as we type with not a mark on it, and it's randomly stopped after a read error on track 15 :/
I've tried getting mp3's from Google Play instead of buying CD's, always end up buying the same music on CD a couple of weeks later to hear how it should really sound.
Don't get MP3's then - get WAV's or FLACs. Put a Sonos connect on the front of the above and bingo its just another source for your amp and you can continue to blow other 'speaker' based systems (including Sonos) out of the water.Marantz PM-66 KI-Signature AMP
Marantz CD63 MK-II KI Signature CD Player
Rodgers db101 Speakers
Still sounds fantastic to this day, and blows any All In One Bose Sounddock or Sonos System out of the water as far as quality is concerned. Sadly these days it spends most of it's time playing mp3's from my PC, as the CD Player is getting ridiculously picky about what CD's it will actually play from start to finish. I'm trying a brand new CD as we type with not a mark on it, and it's randomly stopped after a read error on track 15 :/
I've tried getting mp3's from Google Play instead of buying CD's, always end up buying the same music on CD a couple of weeks later to hear how it should really sound.
I've got my connect on the front end of 3k's worth of amp and speaker in its own dedicated room. Guess which I listen to most - the 3 Sonos play 5's dotted through the house. Even the Play 3 in the summerhouse in the garden has more hrs under its belt than the Connect.
p.s. CD player sounds like the laser is either on its way out or dirty - easy enough fix, there will be guides on youtube for such a relatively cheap mass market player (I don't mean that in a nasty way) or get a cleaning disc to start with. the CD63 was well regarded in its day so consider fixing before buying new, unless you are considering taking a significant step up.
Edited by sparkyhx on Wednesday 11th November 18:35
TonyRPH said:
qube_TA said:
<snip>
I still have an old Marantz Mk1 CD17 which feeds a PM17 which I've always liked the sound of, sure it'll not play HD but it's OK<snip>
I too have a CD17 MK1 (but modified) and it's probably one of the best players I've ever owned.I still have an old Marantz Mk1 CD17 which feeds a PM17 which I've always liked the sound of, sure it'll not play HD but it's OK<snip>
Sadly it's rarely used these days.
I love the amp and it got good reviews but I just bought it without listening to one first.
bodhi said:
I've tried getting mp3's from Google Play instead of buying CD's, always end up buying the same music on CD a couple of weeks later to hear how it should really sound.
Unless it's just for one or two single tracks from the charts, I always still buy CDs, and then rip them as ALAC (Is that still what Apple call it?) for when I want to put on my phone/iPad. Definitely a noticeable difference compared to mp3 at 320k, even when streamed over AirPlay.My daughter popped in to say hi the other day, I had my music playing fairly loudly, she remarked 'that sounds cool, new system?' Nope, had my old amp repaired and fully serviced and treated myself to some new speaker cables! My system is the old NAD 3020, Marantz C.D. player 65DX with QUAD 21 floor standers.
Other than wanting to upgrade the speakers I am entirely happy with my old kit, bought new by me in the mid eighties.
Pleased I took advise from this forum to repair and service amp rather than replace!
Other than wanting to upgrade the speakers I am entirely happy with my old kit, bought new by me in the mid eighties.
Pleased I took advise from this forum to repair and service amp rather than replace!
RichB said:
Vandenberg said:
Hi-Fi is dead to me, disruptive technology has changed the way I listen to music.
<clip> All of my CDs and records are packed away in boxes and I haven't listened to a full CD or record in about 3 years now for me its all about playlists and have around 2,500 of them for every mood an occasion. <etc.>
It's sad to think that in future few people will actually listen to an album from start to finish as a complete piece of work. Earlier someone mentioned Brothers in Arms, that has to be heard from end to end in the order the musicians decided, what about Dark Side of The Moon? Surely there is lots of modern music where tracks compare to the movements in a classical suite, to select individual tracks is rather like saying I love The Brandenberg Concerto but I've only out the third movement on my iPod for certain moods or Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture but only the canons for when I'm angry... <clip> All of my CDs and records are packed away in boxes and I haven't listened to a full CD or record in about 3 years now for me its all about playlists and have around 2,500 of them for every mood an occasion. <etc.>
loudlashadjuster said:
The thing is, for equivalent money they are miles better than what you used to get in the 80s and 90s walking into Argos, Dixons or Laskys, hence why so many are delighted.
Ultimately, the quality (and convenience, discovery) of a Sonos etc. exceeds the threshold that used to force many to seek out better quality alternatives - resulting in the purchase of separates, normally - meaning the narrowing of the market for "real" hifi.
The fewer people have exposure to proper hifi, the fewer make the leap to deciding they want their own so it's ever decreasing circles, to a point.
I'd definitely agree that Sonos is a lot better than the mini/midi systems of 25 years ago, but it is also a lot more expensive in real terms.Ultimately, the quality (and convenience, discovery) of a Sonos etc. exceeds the threshold that used to force many to seek out better quality alternatives - resulting in the purchase of separates, normally - meaning the narrowing of the market for "real" hifi.
The fewer people have exposure to proper hifi, the fewer make the leap to deciding they want their own so it's ever decreasing circles, to a point.
If you went into one of those shops back then, the low end 'Matsui' type systems cost a fraction of a separates system, and even something by one of the brands was still much cheaper.
These days, Richer Sounds will sell you a reasonable CD/Amp/Speaker combination for less than the cost of a single Sonos Play 5 unit. Realistically it will sound better than two of the Play 5 units in stereo configuration, and those cost £700.
I do think that Sonos new advert captures the reason for their popularity - something along the lines of 'When everyone has access to all of the music in the world, the only difference is how they listen to it'.
Being able to select anything from your collection or one of the streaming services from your phone and hear it immediately all around the house does make anything else seem a bit old fashioned (and that is coming from a committed vinyl/Hi-Fi person!)
The problem with Sonos is the expense of the 'Connect' units that allow you to access the system through a proper system. £264 is too much for that in my opinion, and it only seems to have come down £15 in all the time it has been out.
Gassing Station | Home Cinema & Hi-Fi | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff