Is Hi-Fi dead

[Harji]

scovette said:

Harji said:

It won't and doesn't.

Then get a better phone? Or a DAC for yours? It should produce a bit-perfect output, unlike your CD player which will have read errors (and the clock at the wrong end?)

Harji said:

Anyway, going back to the original point, hi-fi separates bring out the best (or worst) and is still way better way of listening to music.

How can you justify such a wide-ranging statement? I'm sorry, but to say that separates can't be matched by a streamer and active speakers is close-minded. And then there's kit which is the antihesis of traditional hi-fi separates, e.g. digital Lygndorfs with their room eq. Add a computer/streamer and twin subs and it'll make music in a way a CD/record player + amp + a pair of speakers can't match in a normal living-room.

And how much does all that cost compare to my £500-£700 max system? Anyway,isn't what you quoted hi-fi separates? Isn't that what I'm saying? What ever you listen and how you listen, hi-fi separates are the best?

Also, I prefer to pop in/on and play with two speakers in stereo,not sure how adding twin subs will improve the sound especially when most new releases drip in bass as it disguises how st the mix/engineering is.

Also, that is a very bold statement to say that system will beat hi-fi separates, are you talking abut quality or how it's distributed? Because if it's quality, there are a host of ppl I know who explore far more and spend far more into sound than I do who will say you are talking rubbish. These ppl will not spend thousands without trying everything else out there before they settle on their choice.

[loudlashadjuster]

scovette said:

Also, as your CD player was designed 20 years old even the DAC in your phone will be better.

I'd take issue with that statement. Most phones come with a throwaway 35p DAC, if indeed it has a discrete chip at all and not just a section on a general audio codec/amp/dac/adc IC. Sound cards in PCs are similar, if not considerably better in the case of anything but the lowliest integrated chipset.

Even my 2-channel DAC, an ancient Linn Numerik wired to the internal SPDIF output, outperforms any PC sound card I've ever tried*. I'd imagine any decent discrete USB DAC would do too.

Phone DACs may be measurably superior to those that have gone before, but I'd say it was a stretch to say they are universally better than an older outboard DAC.

The conversion of PCM audio without authoritative clock recovery isn't exactly dependent on clever algorithms or snazzy new IC technology, it has been well-understood and implemented for many years and I'd say that attention to signal paths, shielding, ground planes etc. are more critical than just having more modern silicon.

Does that mean that a new phone DAC will not outperform an older, crappier hifi DAC? Of course not, I just don't think it can be applied as a blanket statement.

*Caveat: I've never tried any real "audiophile" cards because I've never felt the need to spend £££ improving on what is a perfectly pleasant sounding solution.

[scovette]

loudlashadjuster said:

Does that mean that a new phone DAC will not outperform an older, crappier hifi DAC? Of course not, I just don't think it can be applied as a blanket statement.

Yes you're right of course, I should have said "could" not "will". Apologies.

Harji said:

And how much does all that cost compare to my £500-£700 max system?

Well let's see: "streaming is rubbish" "streaming devices/phone upgrades, I think vale or money a separate h-fi system just blows everything away"

£500 - £700 streamer & active speakers could match a traditional hifi system, could it not? Just because the source is streamed doesn't automatically make it worse. Or upgrading a phone by using its digital out to feed a DAC?

Harji said:

Also, I prefer to pop in/on and play with two speakers in stereo,not sure how adding twin subs will improve the sound especially when most new releases drip in bass as it disguises how st the mix/engineering is.

Because eq'd twin subs will give even bass across a wide area. Unless you're very fortunate, where you sit for best stereo imaging isn't the best place for even bass. And the size of a usual living room doesn't help. Counter-intuitively it sometimes makes the bass quieter, as the peaks are removed.

Lots of people (myself included) use and like full-range loudspeakers, but it doesn't mean they're accurate in a normal living room.

Edited by scovette on Wednesday 23 March 19:05

[gizlaroc]

Bass adds so much more to the soundstage too, sometimes it is the 16-40hz range that adds the spaciousness of a recording to the overall sound, it may not be anything you can hear, or rather point out, but it may simply be acoustics.

Listen to some recordings from halls or abbeys with and without a sub and the difference can be huge, even if there is not a single instrument that goes down into the bass region.

Being able to position the subs in the correct position so it is calibrated correctly for where you are sitting adds so much as well.

[anonymous-user]

I think below about 70hz which is the typical crossover frequency from floor standing speakers, bass is not directional to the human ear so it doesn't matter particularly where you put your sub or how many you have. That's what I've found anyway.

[Maxf]

It isn't dead to me, but it is now a massive luxury where once it was essential (to me).

I have sonos in the bedroom and bathroom - I don't sit and listen to either, they are just there for background music.

In the lounge I have a fairly decent Hi-Fi, which I play lossless files on (occasionally spotify if I haven't got the music in lossless). I'll sit and listen to this for ages in the right mood - alternatively it might not get used for a few weeks. Sonos is used daily.

I suspect I'm somewhat in the middle of embracing new tech, and also retaining hi-fi sound as much as possible.

My dream home certainly has a music room with a very good hi-fi in pride of place.

[gizlaroc]

wormus said:

I think below about 70hz which is the typical crossover frequency from floor standing speakers, bass is not directional to the human ear so it doesn't matter particularly where you put your sub or how many you have. That's what I've found anyway.

You can't really tell where it is, however, where you place it makes a huge difference.

[gizlaroc]

I think as bandwidth gets to the point where streaming lossless is the norm and storage gets to the price where storing lossless is the norm, we will start to see a return.

320kbps is fine for lots of music, and is fine for lots of enviroments, but when kids start to hear decent quality they will hear a difference, going back to MP3 after knowing an album well on vinyl or well recorded 16/44 even is when you really notice it.

[Crackie]

wormus said:

I think below about 70hz which is the typical crossover frequency from floor standing speakers, bass is not directional to the human ear so it doesn't matter particularly where you put your sub or how many you have. That's what I've found anyway.

Listeners can usually locate the position of frequencies of 80-85Hz; small satellite speakers can usually make it down to 100Hz, relatively small bookshelf speakers, such as Wharfedale Diamonds etc, can usually produce 60Hz. Small floorstanders should be able to get into the 40Hz-50Hz region, big floorstanders usually get to low 30s and sometimes 20s.

Low frequencies are omnidirectional but, as Gizlaroc said, the position of the sub in the room and your position in the room, relative to the room's nodes and antinodes, has a huge influence.

Edited by Crackie on Thursday 24th March 22:26

[gizlaroc]

Crackie said:

Low frequencies are omnidirectional but, as Gizlaroc said, the position of the sub in the room and your position in the room, relative to the room's nodes and antinodes, has a huge influence.

I have a really annoying thing at the moment in our sitting room, it doesn't matter where I position the sub in the room, I simply get very low bass in my seating position, however, I do get serious bass out in the hallway!
That goes down well!!

[Crackie]

gizlaroc said:

I have a really annoying thing at the moment in our sitting room, it doesn't matter where I position the sub in the room, I simply get very low bass in my seating position, however, I do get serious bass out in the hallway!
That goes down well!!

Have you tried putting the sub at your listening position ? Unfortunately it needs to be at head height too Once the sub is there you can move ( crawl ) around the room boundaries to listen for the best subjective bass. The test tones in this link could help determine which frequency(s) are giving you a problem. http://www.audiocheck.net/testtones_sinebursts20-2...
I've designed a few commercial subs over the years and my preferred setup method, when setting up demo rooms, was ARTA's real time spectrum analyser. You might already use ARTA but if not it is freeware and only needs £120ish of interface and mic to generate reference quality measurements. http://www.artalabs.hr/

[scovette]

If the subwoofer crawl doesn't work then twin subs on the midpoints of the opposing walls should; or if that's not possible try opposite corners. Then eq down the peaks. (All assuming your room isn't open-plan.)

Google will give you the Harman white paper that explains why it works, but the simple explanation is that it creates a virtual sub in the middle of your room with active bass-trapping.

[gizlaroc]

Crackie said:

Have you tried putting the sub at your listening position ? Unfortunately it needs to be at head height too Once the sub is there you can move ( crawl ) around the room boundaries to listen for the best subjective bass. The test tones in this link could help determine which frequency(s) are giving you a problem. http://www.audiocheck.net/testtones_sinebursts20-2...
I've designed a few commercial subs over the years and my preferred setup method, when setting up demo rooms, was ARTA's real time spectrum analyser. You might already use ARTA but if not it is freeware and only needs £120ish of interface and mic to generate reference quality measurements. http://www.artalabs.hr/

Haha, yeah, I get how to set it up, just a shame it works perfectly in the middle of the doorway.

[Crackie]

gizlaroc said:

Haha, yeah, I get how to set it up, just a shame it works perfectly in the middle of the doorway.

I thought you'd know all about setup, just wasn't sure whether or not you'd tried measuring. Sometimes, the layout of the room makes the positioning decision for you.

My wife once asked why the speakers around the house had to be quite so bloody big and take half the space in every room. "I know they sound great but why do they HAVE to go THERE to sound great".