Hi end home cinema speaker recommendations
Discussion
PhilboSE said:
TonyRPH said:
I'm fascinated by the apparent price fixing on hifi equipment.
I looked at several dealer websites, and every one of then had the amp for £1599.
One would almost suspect there is a cartel...
Ain't that the truth...I looked at several dealer websites, and every one of then had the amp for £1599.
One would almost suspect there is a cartel...
...I'm finalising a spec for a cinema room upgrade (7.1.4 and projector) and have been looking at the Anthem MRX 1120 which has the same price absolutely anywhere you look. £4400 list price and not a penny less. Seems a bit...unlikely...in the modern age.
Monitor Audio seem pretty strict with one website recently showing a 10% off code but saying it applies on everything but MA, with an additional note saying to call them if you are looking to buy MA...
If the manufacturers allowed discounting by their dealers, their dealers would almost all disappear very quickly. We would be buying boxes from warehouses, no real customer service, no chance of a home demo, and then the manufacturers would start disappearing. Price fixing also allows currency fluctuations to be absorbed.
I had (still have, not in use atm) a full Mission '75' set up, so 752 fronts, 75C centre, 751 rears and 75AS subwoofer.
The 75C was the standout, it's a really nice speaker and partners the 752's very well (as you'd imagine). Speech was so clear and delicate through it, but it had weight when needed too. Every bit as lovely as the 752's. It is a bit big though.
751's are good speakers, but actually don't sound that much like a 752 to me. They are also big for rear's, fine for music but for rear's you could probably do as well with something smaller/modern.
75AS wasn't great to be honest. It's unusual shape (it's quite long and thin) helped me hide it but, again, I dare say something modern and modest would outperform it. To be honest it wasn't worlds away from the Yamaha YSP-FSW150 it replaced.
Quick version? Get a 75C to partner your 752's if you can.
The 75C was the standout, it's a really nice speaker and partners the 752's very well (as you'd imagine). Speech was so clear and delicate through it, but it had weight when needed too. Every bit as lovely as the 752's. It is a bit big though.
751's are good speakers, but actually don't sound that much like a 752 to me. They are also big for rear's, fine for music but for rear's you could probably do as well with something smaller/modern.
75AS wasn't great to be honest. It's unusual shape (it's quite long and thin) helped me hide it but, again, I dare say something modern and modest would outperform it. To be honest it wasn't worlds away from the Yamaha YSP-FSW150 it replaced.
Quick version? Get a 75C to partner your 752's if you can.
varsas said:
I had (still have, not in use atm) a full Mission '75' set up, so 752 fronts, 75C centre, 751 rears and 75AS subwoofer.
The 75C was the standout, it's a really nice speaker and partners the 752's very well (as you'd imagine). Speech was so clear and delicate through it, but it had weight when needed too. Every bit as lovely as the 752's. It is a bit big though.
751's are good speakers, but actually don't sound that much like a 752 to me. They are also big for rear's, fine for music but for rear's you could probably do as well with something smaller/modern.
75AS wasn't great to be honest. It's unusual shape (it's quite long and thin) helped me hide it but, again, I dare say something modern and modest would outperform it. To be honest it wasn't worlds away from the Yamaha YSP-FSW150 it replaced.
Quick version? Get a 75C to partner your 752's if you can.
Interesting thoughts. Yes, I had considered a 75C, but wondered if the 78C may be more suitable. It could be argued that the 752's and 75C don't do the Tag AV justice, BUT I shall not part with the 752's (may at some point upgrade and use them on another set up) so if the 75C is the best sonic match for them I'd be silly to not look at them. The 75C was the standout, it's a really nice speaker and partners the 752's very well (as you'd imagine). Speech was so clear and delicate through it, but it had weight when needed too. Every bit as lovely as the 752's. It is a bit big though.
751's are good speakers, but actually don't sound that much like a 752 to me. They are also big for rear's, fine for music but for rear's you could probably do as well with something smaller/modern.
75AS wasn't great to be honest. It's unusual shape (it's quite long and thin) helped me hide it but, again, I dare say something modern and modest would outperform it. To be honest it wasn't worlds away from the Yamaha YSP-FSW150 it replaced.
Quick version? Get a 75C to partner your 752's if you can.
Great value too - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mission-75c-Center-Speak...
Edited by Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah on Saturday 25th March 17:52
Tony1963 said:
If the manufacturers allowed discounting by their dealers, their dealers would almost all disappear very quickly. We would be buying boxes from warehouses, no real customer service, no chance of a home demo, and then the manufacturers would start disappearing. Price fixing also allows currency fluctuations to be absorbed.
Years ago the manufacturer would tell the retailer the price. This became illegal in the TV and HiFi industry. So they moved to suggested price. Which was subsequently outlawed. The final step was making it really obvious what price the manufacturers wanted the item sold at by setting the trade price at a level where a fixed percentage (plus tax) made a round number. The percentage would vary by manufacturer.
Franchises are different as they set the price. If you are found discounting B&O you get kicked out. You could hide the discount in free installation or cables. Cables mount up quickly with B&O.
Things may have moved on. I've not worked in retail since 2002. I remember price tags with before and after VAT prices. There was a time when that could be a source of discount.
Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah said:
varsas said:
I had (still have, not in use atm) a full Mission '75' set up, so 752 fronts, 75C centre, 751 rears and 75AS subwoofer.
The 75C was the standout, it's a really nice speaker and partners the 752's very well (as you'd imagine). Speech was so clear and delicate through it, but it had weight when needed too. Every bit as lovely as the 752's. It is a bit big though.
751's are good speakers, but actually don't sound that much like a 752 to me. They are also big for rear's, fine for music but for rear's you could probably do as well with something smaller/modern.
75AS wasn't great to be honest. It's unusual shape (it's quite long and thin) helped me hide it but, again, I dare say something modern and modest would outperform it. To be honest it wasn't worlds away from the Yamaha YSP-FSW150 it replaced.
Quick version? Get a 75C to partner your 752's if you can.
Interesting thoughts. Yes, I had considered a 75C, but wondered if the 78C may be more suitable. It could be argued that the 752's and 75C don't do the Tag AV justice, BUT I shall not part with the 752's (may at some point upgrade and use them on another set up) so if the 75C is the best sonic match for them I'd be silly to not look at them. The 75C was the standout, it's a really nice speaker and partners the 752's very well (as you'd imagine). Speech was so clear and delicate through it, but it had weight when needed too. Every bit as lovely as the 752's. It is a bit big though.
751's are good speakers, but actually don't sound that much like a 752 to me. They are also big for rear's, fine for music but for rear's you could probably do as well with something smaller/modern.
75AS wasn't great to be honest. It's unusual shape (it's quite long and thin) helped me hide it but, again, I dare say something modern and modest would outperform it. To be honest it wasn't worlds away from the Yamaha YSP-FSW150 it replaced.
Quick version? Get a 75C to partner your 752's if you can.
Great value too - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mission-75c-Center-Speak...
Edited by Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah on Saturday 25th March 17:52
I would consider starting over in all honesty, the AV32r was OK 15 years ago, but a bit sharp sounding.
I had the 192DP for a few weeks after Lexicon processor and found it really shrill and moved it on quickly. I know loads of people who thought the same.
A mate of mine swapped his 192DP for an Arcam AVR400 about 4 years ago and was blown away at how much better it was over the Tag. He was, and still is using Audiolab monosblocks funnily enough.
When he had the Tag processor he had monos across the front three and a stereo amp on the rears, when he got the Arcam he used the Arcam to do centre and rear duties and the Monoblocks to do the left and right channels for music.
He said the music side of things was where the real gain was, and of course when playing the HD Sound formats.
But he offered me the Arcam the other day for £400, considering it was £1800 4 years ago it seemed like great value, but I have Meridian digital speakers so no need for it, but seemed so cheap that I was trying to think where to put it, but he said that was the going rate. That would be a much better way of doing it, nice hdmi switching, less clutter, latest dacs, latest sound format, network music etc. etc. leaving yourself more for speakers.
I had the 192DP for a few weeks after Lexicon processor and found it really shrill and moved it on quickly. I know loads of people who thought the same.
A mate of mine swapped his 192DP for an Arcam AVR400 about 4 years ago and was blown away at how much better it was over the Tag. He was, and still is using Audiolab monosblocks funnily enough.
When he had the Tag processor he had monos across the front three and a stereo amp on the rears, when he got the Arcam he used the Arcam to do centre and rear duties and the Monoblocks to do the left and right channels for music.
He said the music side of things was where the real gain was, and of course when playing the HD Sound formats.
But he offered me the Arcam the other day for £400, considering it was £1800 4 years ago it seemed like great value, but I have Meridian digital speakers so no need for it, but seemed so cheap that I was trying to think where to put it, but he said that was the going rate. That would be a much better way of doing it, nice hdmi switching, less clutter, latest dacs, latest sound format, network music etc. etc. leaving yourself more for speakers.
Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah said:
Interesting thoughts. Yes, I had considered a 75C, but wondered if the 78C may be more suitable. It could be argued that the 752's and 75C don't do the Tag AV justice, BUT I shall not part with the 752's (may at some point upgrade and use them on another set up) so if the 75C is the best sonic match for them I'd be silly to not look at them.
Great value too - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mission-75c-Center-Speak...
The 752s will do far more justice than any of the speakers you linked to originally, you would have to spend a good £1500 to equal them if buying new today. Great value too - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mission-75c-Center-Speak...
gizlaroc said:
I would consider starting over in all honesty, the AV32r was OK 15 years ago, but a bit sharp sounding.
Not going to happen. When you've wanted a Tag /Audiolab set up for 20 years you don't just flog it all at a moments notice. Back in it's day the majority of users regarded it very highly, a little better than 'OK'. My Yamaha DSP592 was 'OK'. A Sony all in one kit from Dixons is 'OK'. This was nearly £3000 in its day!
Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah said:
<snip>
This was nearly £3000 in its day!
Technology has moved on massively since then.This was nearly £3000 in its day!
Your £3000 today will buy you a decidedly better product IMHO.
It's probably fair to say that there are devices out there in the £1k - £2k price range that'll run rings around the TAG.
IIRC, the "Tag" brand name attracted a tax as well.
hyphen said:
How much is it worth today?
About £200. I just sold a Meridian 568 for £200, which was twice the price of the Tag at the time.
Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah said:
Not going to happen. When you've wanted a Tag /Audiolab set up for 20 years you don't just flog it all at a moments notice.
Back in it's day the majority of users regarded it very highly, a little better than 'OK'. My Yamaha DSP592 was 'OK'. A Sony all in one kit from Dixons is 'OK'. This was nearly £3000 in its day!
I owned one new back in the day, I thought it well over rated, swapped for a 192 dual processor at huge cost and although it was a bit smoother still felt along way behind the Lexicon I had been using. Back in it's day the majority of users regarded it very highly, a little better than 'OK'. My Yamaha DSP592 was 'OK'. A Sony all in one kit from Dixons is 'OK'. This was nearly £3000 in its day!
Then swapped for a Meridian 568 which was in a different league, swapped that for a 568.2 and then went to a Lexicon MC12 for a few months before jumping back to Meridian with their G68, which is stunning.
It is a 17 year old processor, things have moved on a lot in 17 years.
I certainly wouldn't be throwing too much money at it now to get it all up and running.
As a pre amp I just don't think it is much cop.
I got vilified on avforums for saying I felt it wasn't up to much and well over rated by owners who were smitten with it. I then had an evening at mine comparing it to the Lexcicon MC-1, MC-8 and the Meridian 568.2 with some of Tag owners. They left me alone after that.
But then I never got the Audiolab 8000 series either, so what do I know? The power amps were fine but their pre amps were always so bright.
Actually, that sounds a bit harsh.
Let's remember something, remember the context what the Tag brought to the table back in 1999, it was the first real high end digtal processor available from a proper hifi company, up till then we had them but they were from Yamaha etc. And if you wanted a hi end pre you bought an add on processor that did centre and rear channels and used your high end stereo amp to do the main left and right duties.
It was at the time something very, very special.
The only other digital cinema processor at the time was Meridian's 565, but that was £6000 and the Lexicon DC-1 (2 years earlier) but only really available stateside.
So, the Tag got some stunning reviews back in 1999 and it became a very, very desirable object. Tech heads lusted after it. Many however went from a £1000 receiver to a £3000 processor and £2500 5 channel amp, of course they were blown away.
Tag really did do a superb job with the AV32r, and I don't want to knock it. All I was saying is some of the latest processing and pre amps from people like Arcam are on a different level.
Let's remember something, remember the context what the Tag brought to the table back in 1999, it was the first real high end digtal processor available from a proper hifi company, up till then we had them but they were from Yamaha etc. And if you wanted a hi end pre you bought an add on processor that did centre and rear channels and used your high end stereo amp to do the main left and right duties.
It was at the time something very, very special.
The only other digital cinema processor at the time was Meridian's 565, but that was £6000 and the Lexicon DC-1 (2 years earlier) but only really available stateside.
So, the Tag got some stunning reviews back in 1999 and it became a very, very desirable object. Tech heads lusted after it. Many however went from a £1000 receiver to a £3000 processor and £2500 5 channel amp, of course they were blown away.
Tag really did do a superb job with the AV32r, and I don't want to knock it. All I was saying is some of the latest processing and pre amps from people like Arcam are on a different level.
PhilboSE said:
Ain't that the truth...
...I'm finalising a spec for a cinema room upgrade (7.1.4 and projector) and have been looking at the Anthem MRX 1120 which has the same price absolutely anywhere you look. £4400 list price and not a penny less. Seems a bit...unlikely...in the modern age.
PM Me, ...I'm finalising a spec for a cinema room upgrade (7.1.4 and projector) and have been looking at the Anthem MRX 1120 which has the same price absolutely anywhere you look. £4400 list price and not a penny less. Seems a bit...unlikely...in the modern age.
PH Deals always available if you know who to ask
Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah said:
Interesting thoughts. Yes, I had considered a 75C, but wondered if the 78C may be more suitable. It could be argued that the 752's and 75C don't do the Tag AV justice, BUT I shall not part with the 752's (may at some point upgrade and use them on another set up) so if the 75C is the best sonic match for them I'd be silly to not look at them.
If aesthetics allow, using another 752 as your centre would be the best match.gizlaroc said:
hyphen said:
How much is it worth today?
About £200. I just sold a Meridian 568 for £200, which was twice the price of the Tag at the time.
Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah said:
You suggest your dislike of it, but then go on to say you found their amps bright (?) sounding? Well, this is subjective. I love the sound the amps give with the 752F's. These speakers are highly detailed but soft sounding, maybe that balances out the 'brightness' you elude to, or maybe different ears like different sounds.
Edited by Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah on Sunday 26th March 21:10
TonyRPH said:
Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah said:
<snip>
This was nearly £3000 in its day!
Technology has moved on massively since then.This was nearly £3000 in its day!
Your £3000 today will buy you a decidedly better product IMHO.
It's probably fair to say that there are devices out there in the £1k - £2k price range that'll run rings around the TAG.
IIRC, the "Tag" brand name attracted a tax as well.
scovette said:
Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah said:
Interesting thoughts. Yes, I had considered a 75C, but wondered if the 78C may be more suitable. It could be argued that the 752's and 75C don't do the Tag AV justice, BUT I shall not part with the 752's (may at some point upgrade and use them on another set up) so if the 75C is the best sonic match for them I'd be silly to not look at them.
If aesthetics allow, using another 752 as your centre would be the best match.gizlaroc said:
hyphen said:
How much is it worth today?
About £200. I just sold a Meridian 568 for £200, which was twice the price of the Tag at the time.
Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah said:
Good job I didn't spend £1-2000 on it then. It's an upgrade to a Yamaha DSP592, so in that context I'm sure I'll be delighted with it. RE Tag tax Andy at Nottm HFC said not, that Tag positioned themselves at the same level as Audiolab, but they got their marketing all wrong, going lifestyle (GQ etc) instead of going after hi-fi fans. Apparently spent a fortune on R&D and marketing at the time too.
Understood - also the DSP592 was a relatively low end processor. The DSP-E800 was the one to have back then.Pricewise TAG placed themselves quite a way above Audiolab pricing IIRC.
Please don't get me wrong; I'm not disputing that the kit is good - all I'm saying is that by way of comparison, most relatively cheap (by comparison to the TAG) current (£500 - £1k) A/V receivers will kick the TAG into touch with regard to processing - however there will always be differences - some will be better with music, others better with surround sound.
Additionally - trying to run a modern HDMI based system with a receiver that has no HDMI facilities can rapidly turn into a frustrating experience.
If your primary focus is music playback then less so - but you will still have lip sync issues when alternating between SD and HD content, and even in some cases across different channels (and certainly different sources).
I know - I ran a NAD T762 (IIRC) for a long time and that was a brilliant receiver, but no HDMI...
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