Disappointing speaker demo - may just move to Sonos?

[normalbloke]

One of the best attributes of Sonos, it the way it can absolutely ps off the hifi ‘purists’ who know what you likethe sound of, better than you. It’s comedy gold.

[Bryanwww]

eBay you can get a set of B&W DM 601s for under 200 if you are looking for something good for jungle.


Dalis are not really great for dance music and big bass but they do have a nice sound.
KEFs are pretty meh overall and over 1k for the LSXs.

[Sheets Tabuer]

Problem with B&W is the very tiring tiss. Only ever manage 30 minutes before I'm bored.

You're never going to get a lot of bass unless you get floor standers. Sonos do have a surprising amount of bass, so much so I have to turn my sub off.

I also own the LSX II and I'd say they lack a sub.

[Bryanwww]

Sheets Tabuer said:

Problem with B&W is the very tiring tiss. Only ever manage 30 minutes before I'm bored.

You're never going to get a lot of bass unless you get floor standers. Sonos do have a surprising amount of bass, so much so I have to turn my sub off.

I also own the LSX II and I'd say they lack a sub.

Tiss?

I prefer the Dali's for music but the B&Ws are good for home cinema/gaming (have a 5.1 set of 6 series with a couple of the m1s as heights and the asw10 sub) so I think they are also good if you prefer dance music whereas the Dali's seem better for more melodic/acoustic type stuff. The DMs were popular for jungle and dnb and they are pretty bassy for a stand mount (but the sound on their newer entry level speakers has become more refined than the dms were)

Oh and I've got the Dali's on a low wooden cabinet which gives a nice bass resonance to them (sacrilege to audiophiles).

I'd avoid all in one systems as it's just more to go wrong in a single package, manufacturers drop support for apps pretty quickly, software isn't a core competency of hifi companies in the first place, and the good ones are not cheaper than separates. I've had speakers for 15 years with no problem and can't see a Sonos lasting that long (by design)

Edited by Bryanwww on Monday 18th March 11:28

[NDA]

Sheets Tabuer said:

I also own the LSX II and I'd say they lack a sub.

And a sub is easy to add to them if 54Hz is not low enough.

I really liked mine but they sit unused since buying the LS60's and KC62. A bit excessive now having 14 drive units, but the KEF's led me astray!

I think the LSX's would be a good option for the OP and a cheapie sub would be easy to add further down the line.

[Tim Cognito]

Thank you all for the input.

The room does have somewhere a sub could be tucked out the way but it would require taking up carpets and possibly floorboards and I just don't want to do that being as we've just finished decorating the room.

Also as my amp doesn't have a sub out, if I did add a sub then the existing speakers will still be trying to cover the low frequencies. Isn't a big point of a sub to "relieve" your bookshelf speakers of those frequencies? Not that I am opposed to upgrading the amp as I know it's entry level, but just clarifying.

So that leaves a Sonos system with wireless sub -
If Sonos wasn't tied to the app I would probably go with them and I do have a Sonos Move in the kitchen which is great, however I do resent being locked into their app and reliant on them to continue to support etc as one of the above posters highlights.

So that leaves no sub and the biggest non tower speakers I can get away with...?

[TEKNOPUG]

Lots of subs are wireless.

Without any tone control, to get increased bass from full range speakers you will have to play them loud. Whereas with a dedicated sub you can increase the volume independently and still listen at normal volume.

The answer is definitely a separate sub. You need to increase your budget though. I'd look to get another amp/AVR that either has a dedicated sub out or a second channel. Then get something wife friendly like this https://www.svsound.com/products/3000-micro-subwoo... that you can connect wirelessly if you want and control the volume via your phone, as well as other settings.

[Tim Cognito]

Lucid_AV said:

• snip*

Thank you for this detailed post, I will look into those Monitor Audios.

[Bryanwww]

Tim Cognito said:

Thank you all for the input.

The room does have somewhere a sub could be tucked out the way but it would require taking up carpets and possibly floorboards and I just don't want to do that being as we've just finished decorating the room.

Also as my amp doesn't have a sub out, if I did add a sub then the existing speakers will still be trying to cover the low frequencies. Isn't a big point of a sub to "relieve" your bookshelf speakers of those frequencies? Not that I am opposed to upgrading the amp as I know it's entry level, but just clarifying.

So that leaves a Sonos system with wireless sub -
If Sonos wasn't tied to the app I would probably go with them and I do have a Sonos Move in the kitchen which is great, however I do resent being locked into their app and reliant on them to continue to support etc as one of the above posters highlights.

So that leaves no sub and the biggest non tower speakers I can get away with...?

With an amp or av receiver with a sub output you can normally set the crossover point which does this, but the sub will go way lower than the speakers can.

Subs are also very dependant on your room and positioning, you can't just stick them anywhere and expect them to sound good - when I got mine the first spot I set it up in it would vibrate the flooring and sound terrible whenever there was super low bass (loft conversion cinema room). Setting it in the corner and mounted on hockey pucks and Audessey setup mostly fixed it but the room itself really just can't handle super low room shaking bass.

Always recommend separates as you can upgrade them over time and not compromise as much, and retire older/lower grade stuff to secondary rooms, move front speakers to rear when you get better fronts etc. whereas on something like Sonos will be a forced junking when they've stopped supporting your system and the app doesn't work anymore.

[Timothy Bucktu]

I dare say the Sonos speakers sound 'good' because there's a lot of sound processing going on...a bit like Alexa speakers.
Another vote for a subwoofer...even with tower speakers (unless they have large drivers) you need to offload the bass.

[TEKNOPUG]

Buy one of these: https://www.richersounds.com/wiim-amp-silver.html and get a wireless subwoofer.

Done.

[Douglas Quaid]

Tim Cognito said:

Douglas Quaid said:

Don’t go Sonos. They’re fine but they’re lifestyle speakers, which means they’re alright if you don’t really like listening to music much.

In what way are Sonos not good for listening to music?

You know what after rereading my comment it comes across a bit harsh. Sonos are alright. Certainly a lot better than nothing, but you can get better speakers. I have a friend who has a Sonos setup as it looks tidy in his place. When I go over there he sits in silence though. My house has music on all the time so I have spent a bit more time and money getting a decent set up. Horses for courses really.

[NDA]

Douglas Quaid said:

Tim Cognito said:

Douglas Quaid said:

Don’t go Sonos. They’re fine but they’re lifestyle speakers, which means they’re alright if you don’t really like listening to music much.

In what way are Sonos not good for listening to music?

You know what after rereading my comment it comes across a bit harsh. Sonos are alright. Certainly a lot better than nothing, but you can get better speakers. I have a friend who has a Sonos setup as it looks tidy in his place. When I go over there he sits in silence though. My house has music on all the time so I have spent a bit more time and money getting a decent set up. Horses for courses really.

Sonos is perfectly fine for background music, listening to the radio etc. I have Sonos in a couple of rooms - single speaker and stereo pairs. It's fine - but it's not the same as a more serious hifi set up, which you probably wouldn't have in a kitchen in any event.

[anonymous-user]

Tim Cognito said:

wormus said:

Tim Cognito said:

In what way are Sonos not good for listening to music?

Depends if you like music or listening to noise. Personally I’d go for a pair of vintage audiophile speakers and a half decent amp over modern, frankly cheap rubbish. Your ears deserve better.

Can you qualify your opinion any more than that? Lack of detail? Coloured sound? Muddy bass?

As above really, engineered on a budget to sound good, without actually being good. Ok for listening to the radio but not for music lovers imho.

[Lucid_AV]

wormus said:

As above really, engineered on a budget to sound good, without actually being good. Ok for listening to the radio but not for music lovers imho.

^ This.

Sonos and other smart speakers are the 21st Century equivalent of Bose Acoustimass speakers from the late '80s. By the mid-'90s the Acoustimass speakers were outselling all the other Hi-Fi brand speakers combined(!). Part of that was the way they were marketed - direct to end users rather than through Hi-Fi stores doing A/B demos. That would have highlighted the shortcomings with the midrange, and the treble, and the bass, oh damn it, the whole sound in general. Skipping that stage helped avoid any unflattering comparisons.

Bose did have specialist stores though, and they'd do short wham-bam-than-you-mam demos, again so that shoppers didn't get long enough to start picking holes in the sound. To give the company its due, they did what Beats headphones do right now. A big hump at 50Hz for bass to make folk think there's deeper bass, and then suck out the midrange, and a bit of a push on low treble.

Sonos and the like are more sophisticated. The speakers are all active (one amp per driver) and there's a lot of DSP thrown at the sound to tweak for the driver limitations. Psychoacoustics comes into play too, boosting certain frequencies to create the impression of detail, space, bass etc. So much digital processing does mask what's happening with the music, but like Instagram filters on pictures, tweaking up the sound to be exciting or impressive is popular.

[Tim Cognito]

wormus said:

As above really, engineered on a budget to sound good, without actually being good. Ok for listening to the radio but not for music lovers imho.

Lucid_AV said:

Sonos and the like are more sophisticated. The speakers are all active (one amp per driver) and there's a lot of DSP thrown at the sound to tweak for the driver limitations. Psychoacoustics comes into play too, boosting certain frequencies to create the impression of detail, space, bass etc. So much digital processing does mask what's happening with the music, but like Instagram filters on pictures, tweaking up the sound to be exciting or impressive is popular.

I'm no Sonos fanboi but both of you are saying they sound good/create the impression of being good without actually being good which I am struggling to understand.

On another note, I am struggling to find wireless subwoofers that aren't only compatible with certain soundbars or wireless speaker system.

This seems to be a solution and then I could just buy any sub...

https://www.av.com/Accessories/SVS-SoundPath-Wirel...

[TEKNOPUG]

Yes that's what you want to get.

[OutInTheShed]

Tim Cognito said:

wormus said:

As above really, engineered on a budget to sound good, without actually being good. Ok for listening to the radio but not for music lovers imho.

Lucid_AV said:

Sonos and the like are more sophisticated. The speakers are all active (one amp per driver) and there's a lot of DSP thrown at the sound to tweak for the driver limitations. Psychoacoustics comes into play too, boosting certain frequencies to create the impression of detail, space, bass etc. So much digital processing does mask what's happening with the music, but like Instagram filters on pictures, tweaking up the sound to be exciting or impressive is popular.

I'm no Sonos fanboi but both of you are saying they sound good/create the impression of being good without actually being good which I am struggling to understand.

On another note, I am struggling to find wireless subwoofers that aren't only compatible with certain soundbars or wireless speaker system.

This seems to be a solution and then I could just buy any sub...

https://www.av.com/Accessories/SVS-SoundPath-Wirel...

I've listened to a few systems with lots of tech in, it seems easy to flip from 'feeling' it's great, a really 'big' 'impressive' sound to thinking it sounds mucked about with, processed, tiring to listen to. It's that moment when you realise you're more influenced by the production and mixing and processing and you've lost the bloke with the guitar.

Sonos is not the only thing that makes me feel that.
Live gig tomorrow for a dose of reality.

[funinhounslow]

OutInTheShed said:

I've listened to a few systems with lots of tech in, it seems easy to flip from 'feeling' it's great, a really 'big' 'impressive' sound to thinking it sounds mucked about with, processed, tiring to listen to. It's that moment when you realise you're more influenced by the production and mixing and processing and you've lost the bloke with the guitar.

Sonos is not the only thing that makes me feel that.
Live gig tomorrow for a dose of reality.

Isn’t it just a compromise, like so many things in life?

I don’t want the expense, faff and space compromises of a set of hi fi separates and wired speakers in my spare room - a £450 Era 300 is one box, one plug and I’m happy with the sound. Of course my living room hi fi sounds “better” but it was a lot more expensive and takes up a lot more space.

Similar story with headphones - I get a superior sound from my wired, over ear, open backed headphones but I’m hardly going to wear them on the tube am I? For those times it’s AirPods Pro everytime - convenience wins out over sound quality sometimes…

[Sheets Tabuer]

funinhounslow said:

Isn’t it just a compromise, like so many things in life?

I don’t want the expense, faff and space compromises of a set of hi fi separates and wired speakers in my spare room - a £450 Era 300 is one box, one plug and I’m happy with the sound. Of course my living room hi fi sounds “better” but it was a lot more expensive and takes up a lot more space.

Similar story with headphones - I get a superior sound from my wired, over ear, open backed headphones but I’m hardly going to wear them on the tube am I? For those times it’s AirPods Pro everytime - convenience wins out over sound quality sometimes…

Exactly this, I used to have expensive HiFi, it was my hobby for longer than I can remember but it's mostly gone now, I have a pair of focal stellia for listening to Pink Floyd with a whiskey or my LSXII when I feel the need for some Tracy Chapman or Alanis Morrisette but as an old raver when I want out and out mentalness I fire up the sonos and blast out some Charlotte de Witte.

Oh and the Era 300s are simply awesome.