Disappointing speaker demo - may just move to Sonos?

[The Dictator]

Apologies, I have read the OP's post and then not the raft of other responses.

I have Sonos all around the house and love it.

In our drawing room we have an Arc, Sub and x2 Play 1s. I went to Richer sounds to test the Arc and Sub with the 1's as I already had the 1's. Within 5 seconds I knew I was dropping about £1,500 on both.

I appreciate that is over budget, so would recommend getting a demo of just the Sub, as I have found it amazing, you can't tell where the bass is coming from, it sits under a table completely out of sight, which sounds like it would suit you and the bass is so strong, I had to put stuff on the back of all the pictures on the walls to stop them rattling.

I have also had things fall off the shelves in the pantry, which I couldn't initially understand :-)

[Lucid_AV]

Tim Cognito said:

The room does have somewhere a sub could be tucked out the way but it would require taking up carpets and possibly floorboards and I just don't want to do that being as we've just finished decorating the room.

This might not be as big a job as you imagine. I'm not sure how much you know about the various ways subs can connect, but for those subs such as BK where they can also use speaker connections, they're wired in parallel with the main speakers. (The sub has a very high impedance, so the amp doesn't 'see' any extra load with the sub connected versus just the speakers. This is called a voltage divider.)

Because there's virtually no current being drawn then the wire connecting the sub doesn't have to be anywhere near as thick as your speaker wire. This means you can have cabling for the sub that is easier to hide.

I install AV gear for customers. Where there's carpet, I can hide cable next to the gripper rod. This doesn't require lifting the whole carpet, just the outer edges, then tucking it back where it meets the skirting. There's a little more work involved crossing a door threshold, of course, but not the end of the world.

If you were to change your sub for one with a sub out RCA socket, then I can thoroughly recommend this cable. eBay item 233923936822. It is thin but better shielded than Audioquest, SVS Soundpath, QED, Fisual, Chord, Ixos and probably lots of others too. It's perfect if you want to guarantee no hum after doing the work to hide a lead.

Tim Cognito said:

Also as my amp doesn't have a sub out, if I did add a sub then the existing speakers will still be trying to cover the low frequencies. Isn't a big point of a sub to "relieve" your bookshelf speakers of those frequencies? Not that I am opposed to upgrading the amp as I know it's entry level, but just clarifying.

Sure, in a perfect world all stereo amps would have the same DSP as AV receivers to filter the frequencies going to the main speakers. That would guarantee that the amp's speaker sockets are only producing audio in the range that the main speakers can reproduce. (Just in case you're wondering, sending full range audio to the sub then having that filter the sound isn't the same thing.)

The reality is different. Besides, how many Hi-Fi systems have been sold over the decades coupled up to small bookshelf speakers? Have you ever worried about this before you started to think about a sub? Has any dealer told you that you must buy a stereo amp with DSP filtering?

It may still be that Sonos is the right answer for you, albeit very much more expensive if you add their sub. I stand by what I said about it not being Hi-Fi, but it makes a pleasant sound. I doubt it'll ever give you those 'wow!' moments when you realise you just heard something really special in a recording, but it's not like you're going totally downmarket to a £200 sound bar as the new 'stereo'. A bit middle-of-the-road then.

[TEKNOPUG]

This https://www.richersounds.com/wiim-amp-space-grey.h... + https://www.richersounds.com/svs-sb1000-pro-black-... is all you need. Add the wireless connector if you want to.

Do away with the Arcam Miniblink altogether. Treat yourself to a new phono-preamp for the Technics if you don't already have one.

[OldGermanHeaps]

TEKNOPUG said:

This https://www.richersounds.com/wiim-amp-space-grey.h... + https://www.richersounds.com/svs-sb1000-pro-black-... is all you need. Add the wireless connector if you want to.

Do away with the Arcam Miniblink altogether. Treat yourself to a new phono-preamp for the Technics if you don't already have one.

The ported svs are orders of magnitude better than the sealed, i have fitted dozens of various svs subs for customers and would go ported every time, they have so much more welly but still sound tighter than most other manufacturers.

[Tim Cognito]

TEKNOPUG said:

This https://www.richersounds.com/wiim-amp-space-grey.h... + https://www.richersounds.com/svs-sb1000-pro-black-... is all you need. Add the wireless connector if you want to.

Do away with the Arcam Miniblink altogether. Treat yourself to a new phono-preamp for the Technics if you don't already have one.

Nice to ditch the arcam, shame it would have to be replaced by a preamp though. Also not keen on having to use their app to change settings. As discussed a good reason to avoid Sonos is not being reliant on an app.

[TEKNOPUG]

OldGermanHeaps said:

TEKNOPUG said:

This https://www.richersounds.com/wiim-amp-space-grey.h... + https://www.richersounds.com/svs-sb1000-pro-black-... is all you need. Add the wireless connector if you want to.

Do away with the Arcam Miniblink altogether. Treat yourself to a new phono-preamp for the Technics if you don't already have one.

The ported svs are orders of magnitude better than the sealed, i have fitted dozens of various svs subs for customers and would go ported every time, they have so much more welly but still sound tighter than most other manufacturers.

Sure. I'm just suggesting the most budget friendly one. OP can get whatever sub he likes. I like the 3000 micro for sensible listening volume.

But really the main item is the Wiim amp, as that has LFE with high-pass for the speakers, streams pretty much everything and has RCA, ethernet, spdif and even HDMI connections . Plus nearly double the OP's current wattage. Just add a sub.

[fasimew]

I just don't understand how hifi speakers cost so much. £569 for a sealed 12" active sub. But adding a couple of ports to the box sends it to £800. Madness.
And richersounds don't even list detailed specs of what they're selling. Even the most basic info such as wattage. Is 325w RMS or peak? No idea.

For SQ ideally you want a sealed enclosure.
You'll need some good EQ'ing ability/DSP if you want a flat response from a ported enclosure.
Have you looked into a transmission line enclosure? Larger, but better than ported.

There's a YouTube channel called techingredients. They showed how easy and cheap it was to make good quality transmission line floor standing speakers that sound excellent.

This audiophile stuff is a gimmick for the gullible, with diminishing returns.

Edited by fasimew on Saturday 23 March 15:26

[TEKNOPUG]

It literally says 325w with a peak of 850w. So it's 325w rms.....

[AC43]

OldGermanHeaps said:

Existing speakers, hpf, proper sub.
For 90s rave i got a used svs pb2000 well in your budget that goes deep, sounds very clean and has caused plasterboard damage and fallen pictures in my living room. If you get a used one you can use the change on aliexpress for a rgb laser, smoke machine and a strobe.

A mate of mine actually brought a smoke machine to our little NY bash. Went well with my MA Golds and Tannoy sub.

Subs should be mandatory. I've got five in the house and one in the car. All tucked away discretely.

[fasimew]

TEKNOPUG said:

It literally says 325w with a peak of 850w. So it's 325w rms.....

It specifically says:
Combining a high-excursion, 12 inch woofer with a 325 watt Power Sledge amplifier, the SB-1000 Pro has the power with control to match. With a peak power rating of over 820 watts, the subwoofer effortlessly delivers the full thrill of cinematic sound tracks.

It doesn't mention whether it's referring to the amp or driver when it refers to peak power rating. It's very ambiguous, and it's missing a whole ton of specs.

Edit: looking at the svs website, it is 325wrms and 820w peak. Richersounds is doing a shoddy job with providing information about the products they sell.

Edited by fasimew on Saturday 23 March 15:49

[TEKNOPUG]

Always refer to the manufacturers website in the first instance

[fasimew]

I always do. I just think richersounds is doing itself a disservice by not including detailed information.

Back to the topic... The prices for this audiophile crap is stupid.

[Tony1963]

fasimew said:

I always do. I just think richersounds is doing itself a disservice by not including detailed information.

Back to the topic... The prices for this audiophile crap is stupid.

If you think it’s crap, then it’s obviously not for you, so just don’t worry about it.
But please, don’t go thinking that people who spend a lot more than you do on their hifi are stupid/blinkered/easily led. The dozen or so that I know have been extremely careful with their money every step of the way. Usually they’ve bought ex-demo and used gear, moving it on for little to no loss if it isn’t for them.
Yes, there will be people out there who are just buying into a brand name, and aren’t really concerned about comparisons etc, but they’re outweighed by the careful people, in my experience.

Believe me, if it was possible to replace a £20-250k system with a few hundred quid’s worth of cheapo Chinese designed and built stuff, they’d be buying it!

[AC43]

Tony1963 said:

fasimew said:

I always do. I just think richersounds is doing itself a disservice by not including detailed information.

Back to the topic... The prices for this audiophile crap is stupid.

If you think it’s crap, then it’s obviously not for you, so just don’t worry about it.
But please, don’t go thinking that people who spend a lot more than you do on their hifi are stupid/blinkered/easily led. The dozen or so that I know have been extremely careful with their money every step of the way. Usually they’ve bought ex-demo and used gear, moving it on for little to no loss if it isn’t for them.
Yes, there will be people out there who are just buying into a brand name, and aren’t really concerned about comparisons etc, but they’re outweighed by the careful people, in my experience.

Believe me, if it was possible to replace a £20-250k system with a few hundred quid’s worth of cheapo Chinese designed and built stuff, they’d be buying it!

There are some odd posts on this thread. But, anyway, I'm not sure any of my subs retailed for more than £500 but it doesn't stop me looking at ones at £800 plus.

But, then again, I have speakers that retail at £1.5k on my main audio system and maybe £1k on y surround system. I don't think that's excessive; more entry level if you like listening to things. Driven by one amp that retailed at £600 and another that was £1k+.

[njw1]

fasimew said:

I just don't understand how hifi speakers cost so much....

As a sound technician I fully agree, it's entirely possible to spend more on a hifi than what it would cost to fit out a nightclub with a huge, top spec touring grade sound system. I can't work out how or why the hifi costs more or how people justify spending that much on it. Anyway, let's not derail the thread...

[Tim Cognito]

Derail away...

My clearly uninformed opinion is that once you get over about £10k for hifi speakers it's 100% marketing and subjective opinion on what type of sound you prefer, I'm sure someone will shortly post some frequency response charts or something to prove me wrong.

Edited by Tim Cognito on Saturday 23 March 19:08

[Tony1963]

Tim Cognito said:

Derail away...

My clearly uninformed opinion is that once you get over about £10k for hifi speakers it's 100% marketing and subjective opinion on what type of sound you prefer, I'm sure someone will shortly post some frequency response charts or something to prove me wrong.

Edited by Tim Cognito on Saturday 23 March 19:08

I don’t look at graphs, I just try to listen and enjoy. If I can.
It can’t possibly be 100% marketing, obviously. I’ve heard speakers well above £10k and, as many here will confirm, in the right room they can be very special. Big active ATCs are a favourite of mine, but I’m a fairly regular guy with a regular sized living room and income. And I’m married! Doesn’t stop me enjoying it all though.

My advice is to be careful about criticising stuff based on price. It starts to sound like you resent expensive things just because you can’t afford it, even if you can.

And £10k is small potatoes.

[Lucid_AV]

fasimew said:

I always do. I just think richersounds is doing itself a disservice by not including detailed information.

Back to the topic... The prices for this audiophile crap is stupid.

I have to point out that a lot of shoppers don't bother to read the information. Of those that do, a significant chunk don't understand it.

If you want to see how dumbed down manufacturer Web sites have become, go have a look at the ones for Samsung and LG TVs. Trying to find any proper detail quickly is a waste of time. We've become this dumb society. They give us an 8-page manual on opening the damned cardboard box FGS.

Regarding the price disparity between sealed and ported SVS subs, consider the transport in containers. 6 sealed = 2 ported. The rest is a tax on folk who must have the loudest.

[Skyman]

Tim Cognito said:

Derail away...

My clearly uninformed opinion is that once you get over about £10k for hifi speakers it's 100% marketing and subjective opinion on what type of sound you prefer, I'm sure someone will shortly post some frequency response charts or something to prove me wrong.

Edited by Tim Cognito on Saturday 23 March 19:08

Some substantive evidence from you, to support this nonsense conjecture, would be nice.

[fasimew]

£10k? Materials cost may be a few hundred if I was to build a pair of floor standers using high quality drivers. For a manufacturer it would be substantively less. Where does the other £9500+ go? Don't tell me r&d. Any tom, dick or harry can look up TS parameters for their drivers and input them in winisd or other freely available calculator.