Bond 23 - Skyfall
Discussion
Bedazzled said:
Twincam16 said:
stuff
As I haven't read the books I found that interesting background. I actually really enjoyed Dalton in Licence To Kill, and Lazenby in OHMSS, and Daniel Craig nailed it in Casino Royale.Mind you, I also liked Moonraker
Actually, the Daniel Craig 'reboot' of Bond is not unlike John Gardner's continuation novels of the Eighties and Nineties (which IMO were actually better-written, if not better-plotted, than Fleming's). Gardner's Bond dealt with supervillains with grandiose evil plans, true, but he did so in a real-espionage way. He was older, he'd taken a few knocks in his time, he wasn't some superhuman robot type, and he drove real-world cars (his Q-car was a Saab 900 Turbo, and his personal car was a Bentley Mulsanne. In 'Win, Lose or Die' one of the MI6 pool cars is a Lancia Delta Integrale).
Edited by Twincam16 on Tuesday 26th February 14:56
SpudLink said:
Mr Roper said:
fatpasty said:
Rollcage said:
TheHeretic said:
I like OHMSS. 
It's certainly the most faithfull to the books, that's for sure.Twincam16 said:
Interestingly, Craig's Bond seems to have responded to the death of Vesper Lynd in the same way that Fleming's Bond did with Teresa di Vicenzo. Unlike a lot of people I actually rather liked Quantum of Solace, mainly because it marked Bond's transition from slightly dodgy chancer in Casino Royale to the total mess he becomes after the opening scenes of Skyfall.
Actually, the Daniel Craig 'reboot' of Bond is not unlike John Gardner's continuation novels of the Eighties and Nineties (which IMO were actually better-plotted, if not better-written, than Fleming's). Gardner's Bond dealt with supervillains with grandiose evil plans, true, but he did so in a real-espionage way. He was older, he'd taken a few knocks in his time, he wasn't some superhuman robot type, and he drove real-world cars (his Q-car was a Saab 900 Turbo, and his personal car was a Bentley Mulsanne. In 'Win, Lose or Die' one of the MI6 pool cars is a Lancia Delta Integrale).
Interesting post.Actually, the Daniel Craig 'reboot' of Bond is not unlike John Gardner's continuation novels of the Eighties and Nineties (which IMO were actually better-plotted, if not better-written, than Fleming's). Gardner's Bond dealt with supervillains with grandiose evil plans, true, but he did so in a real-espionage way. He was older, he'd taken a few knocks in his time, he wasn't some superhuman robot type, and he drove real-world cars (his Q-car was a Saab 900 Turbo, and his personal car was a Bentley Mulsanne. In 'Win, Lose or Die' one of the MI6 pool cars is a Lancia Delta Integrale).
I like Daniel Craig's version of Bond. Casino Royale was excellent and like yourself I also enjoyed QOS, it works very well as a sequel to CR.
I have only watched Skyfall once and found it pretty awful, I just don't know what they were trying to do but it is a mess IMO.
I will try it again as it is bought now, should have just rented it.
Twincam16 said:
Interestingly, Craig's Bond seems to have responded to the death of Vesper Lynd in the same way that Fleming's Bond did with Teresa di Vicenzo. Unlike a lot of people I actually rather liked Quantum of Solace, mainly because it marked Bond's transition from slightly dodgy chancer in Casino Royale to the total mess he becomes after the opening scenes of Skyfall.
Actually, the Daniel Craig 'reboot' of Bond is not unlike John Gardner's continuation novels of the Eighties and Nineties (which IMO were actually better-written, if not better-plotted, than Fleming's). Gardner's Bond dealt with supervillains with grandiose evil plans, true, but he did so in a real-espionage way. He was older, he'd taken a few knocks in his time, he wasn't some superhuman robot type, and he drove real-world cars (his Q-car was a Saab 900 Turbo, and his personal car was a Bentley Mulsanne. In 'Win, Lose or Die' one of the MI6 pool cars is a Lancia Delta Integrale).
Absolutely agree. I think that is why I have my top 3 Bonds as Craig, Dalton, and Lazenby, (although not quite fair for Lazenby as he only had one film, and no gash scripts to work with). Later Connery, and Moore seemed to take it away from the Bond of the books a tad too much. Actually, the Daniel Craig 'reboot' of Bond is not unlike John Gardner's continuation novels of the Eighties and Nineties (which IMO were actually better-written, if not better-plotted, than Fleming's). Gardner's Bond dealt with supervillains with grandiose evil plans, true, but he did so in a real-espionage way. He was older, he'd taken a few knocks in his time, he wasn't some superhuman robot type, and he drove real-world cars (his Q-car was a Saab 900 Turbo, and his personal car was a Bentley Mulsanne. In 'Win, Lose or Die' one of the MI6 pool cars is a Lancia Delta Integrale).
Edited by Twincam16 on Tuesday 26th February 14:56
I too thought that Vesper and Teresa were mirrored in how they affected Jimmy.
I'm still struggling to work out the continuity of this new series I'm afraid. So he's a wet behind the ears new agent in CR, this ties directly into QoS so he is a bit worse for wear, especially after Vespa's death and bit more hard edge but still essentially a relative newbie as it's a follow up to his first big case, chasing down the elusive Quantum which was set up in the first film so what 6 months time period max?
Then in Skyfall, suddenly and for some unexplained reason he is a washed up has been with constant references to him being "past it". They seem to have jumped forward about 15 years in his career with no explanation and yet he still looks the same and so does M, what gives???
Then in Skyfall, suddenly and for some unexplained reason he is a washed up has been with constant references to him being "past it". They seem to have jumped forward about 15 years in his career with no explanation and yet he still looks the same and so does M, what gives???
Guvernator said:
I'm still struggling to work out the continuity of this new series I'm afraid. So he's a wet behind the ears new agent in CR, this ties directly into QoS so he is a bit worse for wear, especially after Vespa's death and bit more hard edge but still essentially a relative newbie as it's a follow up to his first big case, chasing down the elusive Quantum which was set up in the first film so what 6 months time period max?
Then in Skyfall, suddenly and for some unexplained reason he is a washed up has been with constant references to him being "past it". They seem to have jumped forward about 15 years in his career with no explanation and yet he still looks the same and so does M, what gives???
It has been a few years since QoS. He has done other missions in the mean time. Then in Skyfall, suddenly and for some unexplained reason he is a washed up has been with constant references to him being "past it". They seem to have jumped forward about 15 years in his career with no explanation and yet he still looks the same and so does M, what gives???
TheHeretic said:
Guvernator said:
I'm still struggling to work out the continuity of this new series I'm afraid. So he's a wet behind the ears new agent in CR, this ties directly into QoS so he is a bit worse for wear, especially after Vespa's death and bit more hard edge but still essentially a relative newbie as it's a follow up to his first big case, chasing down the elusive Quantum which was set up in the first film so what 6 months time period max?
Then in Skyfall, suddenly and for some unexplained reason he is a washed up has been with constant references to him being "past it". They seem to have jumped forward about 15 years in his career with no explanation and yet he still looks the same and so does M, what gives???
It has been a few years since QoS. He has done other missions in the mean time. Then in Skyfall, suddenly and for some unexplained reason he is a washed up has been with constant references to him being "past it". They seem to have jumped forward about 15 years in his career with no explanation and yet he still looks the same and so does M, what gives???
Twincam16 said:
Also, he wasn't exactly 'young' in Casino Royale, he'd just been promoted to the highest level of intelligence fieldwork. I got the impression that Craig's Bond had spent years in the Navy and quite possibly served in places like Kosovo, Sierra Leone and maybe even Iraq. He wasn't 'wet behind the ears' as-such, more just full of rough edges that needed smoothing off in order for him to take on greater challenges.
Very seasoned militarily, I think. On a side note, I am really liking how they seem to be edging towards the leather-clad padded door, M in an office akin to earlier films, and Moneypenny. I think that bodes well for the future.
TheHeretic said:
It has been a few years since QoS. He has done other missions in the mean time.
A few years I can understand but constant references to him being too old were a bit disconcerting. OK he want on a small bender for a while but comments that he'd been at the game for too long, he was an old dog and well past his prime where out of place. Probably done to heighten the sense of build up and make it seem more "heroic" when he makes his inevitable comeback but the comments just seem incongruous with how much time seems to have elapsed (both he and M look exactly the same)Also this is his 3rd outing and if he is "already past his prime" where do they take it from here? James Bond as an OAP using his Freedom Bus Pass to get around rather than an Aston?
Guvernator said:
TheHeretic said:
It has been a few years since QoS. He has done other missions in the mean time.
A few years I can understand but constant references to him being too old were a bit disconcerting. OK he want on a small bender for a while but comments that he'd been at the game for too long, he was an old dog and well past his prime where out of place. Probably done to heighten the sense of build up and make it seem more "heroic" when he makes his inevitable comeback but the comments just seem incongruous with how much time seems to have elapsed (both he and M look exactly the same)Also this is his 3rd outing and if he is "already past his prime" where do they take it from here? James Bond as an OAP using his Freedom Bus Pass to get around rather than an Aston?
"Well, I understand double-O's have a very short life expectancy, so your mistake will be short-lived."
ninja-lewis said:
Guvernator said:
TheHeretic said:
It has been a few years since QoS. He has done other missions in the mean time.
A few years I can understand but constant references to him being too old were a bit disconcerting. OK he want on a small bender for a while but comments that he'd been at the game for too long, he was an old dog and well past his prime where out of place. Probably done to heighten the sense of build up and make it seem more "heroic" when he makes his inevitable comeback but the comments just seem incongruous with how much time seems to have elapsed (both he and M look exactly the same)Also this is his 3rd outing and if he is "already past his prime" where do they take it from here? James Bond as an OAP using his Freedom Bus Pass to get around rather than an Aston?
"Well, I understand double-O's have a very short life expectancy, so your mistake will be short-lived."
By the time he gets "OO" status, he's not a young man.
Regarding continuity, I expect Bond has been a busy boy in the time between QoS and Skyfall. We don't know what the missions are, but we can assume the job takes a toll on mind, body and spirit.
The new M was making the point that Bond shouldn't be on the front line, presumably based on the normal career path of MI6 agents (or at least those that live long enough. )
For the future, we could have a Bond who is past his physical prime, blasé about villains who plot world domination and try to kill him in elaborate ways, and glides through missions on charm and wit while bedding as many women as he can. Perhaps he could also have a Lotus as the company car.
Edited by SpudLink on Wednesday 27th February 09:36
SpudLink said:
ninja-lewis said:
Guvernator said:
TheHeretic said:
It has been a few years since QoS. He has done other missions in the mean time.
A few years I can understand but constant references to him being too old were a bit disconcerting. OK he want on a small bender for a while but comments that he'd been at the game for too long, he was an old dog and well past his prime where out of place. Probably done to heighten the sense of build up and make it seem more "heroic" when he makes his inevitable comeback but the comments just seem incongruous with how much time seems to have elapsed (both he and M look exactly the same)Also this is his 3rd outing and if he is "already past his prime" where do they take it from here? James Bond as an OAP using his Freedom Bus Pass to get around rather than an Aston?
"Well, I understand double-O's have a very short life expectancy, so your mistake will be short-lived."
By the time he gets "OO" status, he's not a young man.
Regarding continuity, I expect Bond has been a busy boy in the time between QoS and Skyfall. We don't know what the missions are, but we can assume the job takes a toll on mind, body and spirit.
The new M was making the point that Bond shouldn't be on the front line, presumably based on the normal career path of MI6 agents (or at least those that live long enough. )
For the future, we could have a Bond who is past his physical prime, blasé about villains who plot world domination and try to kill him in elaborate ways, and glides through missions on charm and wit while bedding as many women as he can. Perhaps he could also have a Lotus as the company car.
Edited by SpudLink on Wednesday 27th February 09:36
Seriously though, I don't see Daniel Craig ageing in the way Roger Moore has into the retired-UN-diplomat sort, but rather the still-wouldn't-piss-him-off-he's-still-hard-as-nails way in which Malcolm Macdowell and Terence Stamp have.
SpudLink said:
ninja-lewis said:
Guvernator said:
TheHeretic said:
It has been a few years since QoS. He has done other missions in the mean time.
A few years I can understand but constant references to him being too old were a bit disconcerting. OK he want on a small bender for a while but comments that he'd been at the game for too long, he was an old dog and well past his prime where out of place. Probably done to heighten the sense of build up and make it seem more "heroic" when he makes his inevitable comeback but the comments just seem incongruous with how much time seems to have elapsed (both he and M look exactly the same)Also this is his 3rd outing and if he is "already past his prime" where do they take it from here? James Bond as an OAP using his Freedom Bus Pass to get around rather than an Aston?
"Well, I understand double-O's have a very short life expectancy, so your mistake will be short-lived."
By the time he gets "OO" status, he's not a young man.
However the "official profile" for Daniel Craig states that he was encouraged to enter Navy Intelligence after showing aptitude at a an early age and he also served with the SBS for a time but he left the Navy to join MI6 when he was 30 and eventually worked his way up to "00" status at 38. This ties in with some of what you've stated but it sounds like this "background" was made up after the fact so to speak to fit in with the events in the 3 new movies. 38 sounds like far too old an old age to become a "00" to me as it's very much a physical\young man's game so becoming a "00" at 38 and then what retiring at 41-42 just sounds a bit odd to me.
IMO it makes much more sense that he was groomed from an early age and has a long careeer as a "00" which is what the previous films with Connery\Moore seem to indicate. I just find it a bit incongrous that in the space of a few films and a couple of years, he seems to have gone from a wet behind the ears "00" to someone who is "past it".
That also brings up the very sticky point of where does he go from here? They've gone to all this trouble to set up the end of Skyfall for him to continue further missions as a "00" but if he is too old now (you can't turn back time by doing a few press ups), how many more missions does he have left in him?
Guvernator said:
That also brings up the very sticky point of where does he go from here? They've gone to all this trouble to set up the end of Skyfall for him to continue further missions as a "00" but if he is too old now (you can't turn back time by doing a few press ups), how many more missions does he have left in him?
The tone of the films might change to be more about 'spying' than big bone-crunching action set-pieces. Even though Connery's films usually ended in a great big fight scene they usually involved an awful lot of actual espionage beforehand. This should be good, as IMO Pierce Brosnan's films started to wane when it was clear they were built around big daft set-pieces (Die Another Day being utterly dire because of this - Goldeneye and Tomorrow Never Dies were positive masterpieces in comparison).After that - well, I would like them to do something seriously radical.
How about this - a film begins as any other spy thriller, with a much younger actor at the centre of the action and Daniel Craig's Bond in the shadows, almost as a peripheral character, who could retire or even die towards the end of the film. This main character is an orphan, unsure of his real background, trained from a very early age at a distance by MI6. By the end of the film, he has proven himself worthy of high-level fieldwork.
And then? he gets handed his 'identity for life' in a Jason Bourne/MIB/Hitman sort of a way. His official name from now on will be James Bond, agent 007.
Twincam16 said:
Actually, the Daniel Craig 'reboot' of Bond is not unlike John Gardner's continuation novels of the Eighties and Nineties (which IMO were actually better-written, if not better-plotted, than Fleming's). Gardner's Bond dealt with supervillains with grandiose evil plans, true, but he did so in a real-espionage way. He was older, he'd taken a few knocks in his time, he wasn't some superhuman robot type, and he drove real-world cars (his Q-car was a Saab 900 Turbo, and his personal car was a Bentley Mulsanne. In 'Win, Lose or Die' one of the MI6 pool cars is a Lancia Delta Integrale).
Oh my god, I had no idea that those books existed!! 
Having read all the Flemming books several times plus got the very latest couple I'm extremely excited to learn about these and have just ordered the first one.
Does explain one mystery though. Many many years ago I was at the Motor Show and the Saab stand was all about Saab being the new James Bond car, only for it never to appear in a film. I'd assumed that their PR team had jumped the gun on a potential film role for their car that embarrassingly had then never come off. I get it now.
Ari said:
Twincam16 said:
Actually, the Daniel Craig 'reboot' of Bond is not unlike John Gardner's continuation novels of the Eighties and Nineties (which IMO were actually better-written, if not better-plotted, than Fleming's). Gardner's Bond dealt with supervillains with grandiose evil plans, true, but he did so in a real-espionage way. He was older, he'd taken a few knocks in his time, he wasn't some superhuman robot type, and he drove real-world cars (his Q-car was a Saab 900 Turbo, and his personal car was a Bentley Mulsanne. In 'Win, Lose or Die' one of the MI6 pool cars is a Lancia Delta Integrale).
Oh my god, I had no idea that those books existed!! Having read all the Flemming books several times plus got the very latest couple I'm extremely excited to learn about these and have just ordered the first one.
Does explain one mystery though. Many many years ago I was at the Motor Show and the Saab stand was all about Saab being the new James Bond car, only for it never to appear in a film. I'd assumed that their PR team had jumped the gun on a potential film role for their car that embarrassingly had then never come off. I get it now.
To summarise - it had a police-spec engine to allow it to do 170mph, it was completely sealed against chemical weapon attack, it had night-vision with a head-up display on the windscreen, bulletproof armour, a selection of guns and grenades in hidden compartments and guns that popped out of the front wings.
IIRC in 'Icebreaker' it also had a high-tensile cable winch attached to a piton hidden in the front bumper so it could drag itself out of ditches as well.
Ari said:
Brilliant! I recall seeing the actual car (or what was purported to be the actual car, no reason to think it wasn't) on the Saab stand.
Can't wait for the book to arrive now!
Also, there's either a scene in the book or references to it where James Bond gets advanced driving lessons from Erik Carlsson.Can't wait for the book to arrive now!
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