So, Batman to appear in man of steel sequel...
Discussion
DMC2 said:
Then how come Batman beats Superman in the comic from which a lot of this film is taken from.
Superman's powers have never been static. He is dialled up or down depending on the writers. At his strongest, it is just silly, he is just invincible, but at lower levels, he can be taken.In the comic Batman smashes him because Bruce Wayne is just smarter, using a combination of kryptonite and other stuff on a weakened Superman, who is basically an unimaginative lacky in the comic.
Halb said:
DMC2 said:
Then how come Batman beats Superman in the comic from which a lot of this film is taken from.
Superman's powers have never been static. He is dialled up or down depending on the writers. At his strongest, it is just silly, he is just invincible, but at lower levels, he can be taken.In the comic Batman smashes him because Bruce Wayne is just smarter, using a combination of kryptonite and other stuff on a weakened Superman, who is basically an unimaginative lacky in the comic.
The thing about Batman is that he is smart, really bloody smart. He plans things out and his the ultimate tactician. In the comics, Batman has a file on every single superhero and villain which contains a plan on exactly how to beat them. He trusts no-one and always prepares for the worst case scenario.
In The Dark Knight Returns comics, they actually make a big thing about this. The first half of the comic has Batman fighting the leader of a gang called The Mutants. Initially he tries to go toe-to-toe with him and ends up getting beaten quite badly as the guy is stronger and faster. Batman then realises he can't beat the guy on level terms, so comes up with a plan that slows the guy down and puts Batman on an equal footing.
This is how he beats Superman; he drags him down to his level, weakens him and gets things on a level playing field.
It's actually quite satisfying to watch/read, as Superman is portrayed as some sort of Government Rottweiler in the comics; akin to Dr Manhattan in Watchmen.
The trailer looks like it has a decent tone to it and explores some of the parts outside of the usual superhero guff. DC look like they are going down a really gritty route compared to Marvel and I quite like it.
(Halb, this isn't directed at you, merely carrying on from your point
)Edited by The Beaver King on Tuesday 14th July 08:09
The Beaver King said:
Halb said:
DMC2 said:
Then how come Batman beats Superman in the comic from which a lot of this film is taken from.
Superman's powers have never been static. He is dialled up or down depending on the writers. At his strongest, it is just silly, he is just invincible, but at lower levels, he can be taken.In the comic Batman smashes him because Bruce Wayne is just smarter, using a combination of kryptonite and other stuff on a weakened Superman, who is basically an unimaginative lacky in the comic.
The thing about Batman is that he is smart, really bloody smart. He plans things out and his the ultimate tactician. In the comics, Batman has a file on every single superhero and villain which contains a plan on exactly how to beat them. He trusts no-one and always prepares for the worst case scenario.
In The Dark Knight Returns comics, they actually make a big thing about this. The first half of the comic has Batman fighting the leader of a gang called The Mutants. Initially he tries to go toe-to-toe with him and ends up getting beaten quite badly as the guy is stronger and faster. Batman then realises he can't beat the guy on level terms, so comes up with a plan that slows the guy down and puts Batman on an equal footing.
This is how he beats Superman; he drags him down to his level, weakens him and gets things on a level playing field.
It's actually quite satisfying to watch/read, as Superman is portrayed as some sort of Government Rottweiler in the comics; akin to Dr Manhattan in Watchmen.
The trailer looks like it has a decent tone to it and explores some of the parts outside of the usual superhero guff. DC look like they are going down a really gritty route compared to Marvel and I quite like it.
(Halb, this isn't directed at you, merely carrying on from your point
)Edited by The Beaver King on Tuesday 14th July 08:09
Guvernator said:
So you are saying Batman cheats 
In a single word; yes.A little more indepth; Batman does whatever he can to win. He will do what is necessary, sometimes beyond that, to achieve his goals. Only just stopping short of that line where somebody dies.
That's what I love about Batman, he is barely contained emotion with a sharp mind. He isn't super, so he compensates by fighting dirty.
The problem I have with Superman fighting "normal" people is that they basically have to de-power him (cheat) to make it in any way fair which is fine the first few times you see it but gets old quite quickly thereafter.
As for Batman planning every minute detail, I think the old maxim, no plan survives contact with the enemy applies. How can you plan for EVERY eventuality, it's just not possible. What if Superman flies at maximum speed from beyond visual range and then carries you up into outer space, he'd be able to do this before you could even register what had happened. We are talking about a being who has been shown to be able to reverse time and literally move planets, no planning can account for that.
It's the reason why I prefer Superman to fight other super powered beings, making him fight humans is no contest hence the over-convoluted logic gymnastics\jumping through hoops they have to perform to even out the playing field, every time they decide to put him up against one.
Not against this movie at all as I think it still looks awesome so I'll suspend my disbelief at the notion that a smart human with some gadgets can beat a god.
As for Batman planning every minute detail, I think the old maxim, no plan survives contact with the enemy applies. How can you plan for EVERY eventuality, it's just not possible. What if Superman flies at maximum speed from beyond visual range and then carries you up into outer space, he'd be able to do this before you could even register what had happened. We are talking about a being who has been shown to be able to reverse time and literally move planets, no planning can account for that.
It's the reason why I prefer Superman to fight other super powered beings, making him fight humans is no contest hence the over-convoluted logic gymnastics\jumping through hoops they have to perform to even out the playing field, every time they decide to put him up against one.
Not against this movie at all as I think it still looks awesome so I'll suspend my disbelief at the notion that a smart human with some gadgets can beat a god.
Its simple really. Batman is the best because he is just a man. But a man with zero morals in what you would call a traditional moral set up.
Superman is the perfect human. Moralistic and does whats right. Batman on the other hand is the darkness he works in. He is a good man but in order to be a good man will do whatever is called for at any given time.
When it comes down to it hes a street fighter and when he brings his enemy to his level and street fights he wins.
He is also smarter than everyone he goes up against apart from the joker. Batman and Joker are essentially the same person. Just one of them wants justice and the other wants chaos.
Superman is the perfect human. Moralistic and does whats right. Batman on the other hand is the darkness he works in. He is a good man but in order to be a good man will do whatever is called for at any given time.
When it comes down to it hes a street fighter and when he brings his enemy to his level and street fights he wins.
He is also smarter than everyone he goes up against apart from the joker. Batman and Joker are essentially the same person. Just one of them wants justice and the other wants chaos.
Batman beats Superman because from the moment Superman appeared on the radar he carried the thing that beats superman.
He had those kryptonite enhanced suits to simpley kick s
t into superman or he fought him out of the sunlight.
In all those JLA cartoons it was also Batman who saved the day by being a human with more smarts and cunning than the rest.
He had those kryptonite enhanced suits to simpley kick s
t into superman or he fought him out of the sunlight. In all those JLA cartoons it was also Batman who saved the day by being a human with more smarts and cunning than the rest.
airweaz said:
Batman beats Superman because from the moment Superman appeared on the radar he carried the thing that beats superman.
He had those kryptonite enhanced suits to simpley kick st into superman or he fought him out of the sunlight.
In all those JLA cartoons it was also Batman who saved the day by being a human with more smarts and cunning than the rest.
Doesn't really stand up though does it. If Superman can't get near Batman then can't he just stand 20 miles away and throw buildings at him? He had those kryptonite enhanced suits to simpley kick s
t into superman or he fought him out of the sunlight. In all those JLA cartoons it was also Batman who saved the day by being a human with more smarts and cunning than the rest.
In fact, that's pretty much western military strategy these days; throw things at the enemy from afar (and hope they hit the bad ones).
Or lazer him to death, or withstand the Kryptonite for the few seconds he would need to defeat him, he's been shown to withstand the effects for minutes at a time when it suits the story line, hell he power lifted a Kryptonite Island into orbit in the previous film!
Or go back in time and stop him becoming Batman. He literally has hundreds of options hence why the stories always contain very convoluted logic to explain away the huge power advantage. Still I can see there are a lot of Batman fans on this thread so I'll step away from the geek-fight and just look forward to the film instead.
Much as I am looking forward to the dustup, I am guessing at some point they will reconcile their differences. I also have no idea how they are going to incorporate Wonder Women into the story, she has no origin film after all. I hope to god they don't rush her introduction and just shoehorn her in, that never works out.
Or go back in time and stop him becoming Batman. He literally has hundreds of options hence why the stories always contain very convoluted logic to explain away the huge power advantage. Still I can see there are a lot of Batman fans on this thread so I'll step away from the geek-fight and just look forward to the film instead.
Much as I am looking forward to the dustup, I am guessing at some point they will reconcile their differences. I also have no idea how they are going to incorporate Wonder Women into the story, she has no origin film after all. I hope to god they don't rush her introduction and just shoehorn her in, that never works out.
Guvernator said:
Or lazer him to death, or withstand the Kryptonite for the few seconds he would need to defeat him, he's been shown to withstand the effects for minutes at a time when it suits the story line, hell he power lifted a Kryptonite Island into orbit in the previous film!
Or go back in time and stop him becoming Batman. He literally has hundreds of options hence why the stories always contain very convoluted logic to explain away the huge power advantage. Still I can see there are a lot of Batman fans on this thread so I'll step away from the geek-fight and just look forward to the film instead.
Much as I am looking forward to the dustup, I am guessing at some point they will reconcile their differences. I also have no idea how they are going to incorporate Wonder Women into the story, she has no origin film after all. I hope to god they don't rush her introduction and just shoehorn her in, that never works out.
There will always be plot holes with Superheros its the nature of the beast. Superman is a pussy albeit a pussy who is indestructible. Although the story with Doomsday worked well. He just beat him and beat him really. Or go back in time and stop him becoming Batman. He literally has hundreds of options hence why the stories always contain very convoluted logic to explain away the huge power advantage. Still I can see there are a lot of Batman fans on this thread so I'll step away from the geek-fight and just look forward to the film instead.
Much as I am looking forward to the dustup, I am guessing at some point they will reconcile their differences. I also have no idea how they are going to incorporate Wonder Women into the story, she has no origin film after all. I hope to god they don't rush her introduction and just shoehorn her in, that never works out.
Regarding Wonder Woman. I believe this is an Intro and an Origins story is coming.
airweaz said:
Regarding Wonder Woman. I believe this is an Intro and an Origins story is coming.
Hmm seems a bit arse-about face. I know they were a bit pressed for time but I'd have preferred they introduced WW with a proper origin story first. Previously, quick and dirty character introductions haven't been very successful as they always feel a bit rushed and don't get given enough time to develop. It can also lead to "superhero\villan overload" where you have too many characters with not enough screen time, see Spiderman 3 and some of the X-Men films for perfect examples. I think she is an important enough character in the DC universe to be treated with some respect, I just hope they handle her introduction properly.
Guvernator said:
airweaz said:
Regarding Wonder Woman. I believe this is an Intro and an Origins story is coming.
Hmm seems a bit arse-about face. I know they were a bit pressed for time but I'd have preferred they introduced WW with a proper origin story first. Previously, quick and dirty character introductions haven't been very successful as they always feel a bit rushed and don't get given enough time to develop. It can also lead to "superhero\villan overload" where you have too many characters with not enough screen time, see Spiderman 3 and some of the X-Men films for perfect examples. I think she is an important enough character in the DC universe to be treated with some respect, I just hope they handle her introduction properly.
It sounds like a stupid way of doing it, but I reckon it could work quite well.
Guvernator said:
airweaz said:
Regarding Wonder Woman. I believe this is an Intro and an Origins story is coming.
Hmm seems a bit arse-about face. I know they were a bit pressed for time but I'd have preferred they introduced WW with a proper origin story first. Previously, quick and dirty character introductions haven't been very successful as they always feel a bit rushed and don't get given enough time to develop. It can also lead to "superhero\villan overload" where you have too many characters with not enough screen time, see Spiderman 3 and some of the X-Men films for perfect examples. I think she is an important enough character in the DC universe to be treated with some respect, I just hope they handle her introduction properly.
airweaz said:
Guvernator said:
airweaz said:
Regarding Wonder Woman. I believe this is an Intro and an Origins story is coming.
Hmm seems a bit arse-about face. I know they were a bit pressed for time but I'd have preferred they introduced WW with a proper origin story first. Previously, quick and dirty character introductions haven't been very successful as they always feel a bit rushed and don't get given enough time to develop. It can also lead to "superhero\villan overload" where you have too many characters with not enough screen time, see Spiderman 3 and some of the X-Men films for perfect examples. I think she is an important enough character in the DC universe to be treated with some respect, I just hope they handle her introduction properly.
Personally the biggest mistake they've made is separating the TV/Movie universe, they have perfectly good Arrow/Flash characters available and they're ignoring them (for perfectly good reasons but reasons of their own making!)
MiniMan64 said:
Wonder-Woman, Flash and Aquaman are all confirmed as "in" SM vs BM but I believe Flash/Aquamans appearance amounts to a small cameo and all three will get solo movies at a later point.
Not forgetting Cyborg and rumours of Green Lantern....This is going to be one busy-ass film.
The Beaver King said:
MiniMan64 said:
Wonder-Woman, Flash and Aquaman are all confirmed as "in" SM vs BM but I believe Flash/Aquamans appearance amounts to a small cameo and all three will get solo movies at a later point.
Not forgetting Cyborg and rumours of Green Lantern....This is going to be one busy-ass film.
MiniMan64 said:
The Beaver King said:
MiniMan64 said:
Wonder-Woman, Flash and Aquaman are all confirmed as "in" SM vs BM but I believe Flash/Aquamans appearance amounts to a small cameo and all three will get solo movies at a later point.
Not forgetting Cyborg and rumours of Green Lantern....This is going to be one busy-ass film.
The rumour around Green Lantern is that Dan Amboyer, who is listed on the BvS IMDB cast page as 'Drone Pilot' is actually Hal Jordan. (Edit: For those that aren't big into comics; Hal Jordan's back story is that he was an airforce pilot before becoming Green Lantern.)
Edited by The Beaver King on Tuesday 14th July 15:23
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