PQ 17: An Arctic Convoy Disaster - Jeremy Clarkson
Discussion
FourWheelDrift said:
Although this was PQ18, this photo shows the force and dangers they faced.
Ammunition ship SS Mary Luckenbach's 1,000 tons of TNT explodes after being hit by an aerial torpedo dropped by attacking German aircraft. The ship was completely destroyed and all 41 merchant sailors and 24 US guardsmen on board were killed.
It wasn't a big ship either, same size as those around.
If you have to go I suppose there are worse ways to go; better than being pitched into near-freezing water and dying of exposure.Ammunition ship SS Mary Luckenbach's 1,000 tons of TNT explodes after being hit by an aerial torpedo dropped by attacking German aircraft. The ship was completely destroyed and all 41 merchant sailors and 24 US guardsmen on board were killed.
It wasn't a big ship either, same size as those around.
Thank you, I was completely unaware of this programme. His HMS Campbelltown St Nazaire raid programme was excellent, even if the bookshop intro may have been a little contrived as I think that raid was well known. Even watching the repeat of that I shed a tear or two.
I shall try to catch this on iplayer. If I'd not seen this posted here I'd never have known about this one, so thank you.
I shall try to catch this on iplayer. If I'd not seen this posted here I'd never have known about this one, so thank you.
Off topic. Watched an episode of Motorway cops yesterday which is a bit out of character for me as it usually boils my wee.
Anyway it was the one where the 91 year old exPara had a problem with his car on the way to the ferry to attend a reunion. Planning to make his last parachute jump too.
Anyway they managed to get him fixed up with a hire car and to the ferry.
The grand old man passed away while he was over in Netherlands on his reunion, happy and amongst friends.
I might have had a dust speck in my eye at one point.
Anyway it was the one where the 91 year old exPara had a problem with his car on the way to the ferry to attend a reunion. Planning to make his last parachute jump too.
Anyway they managed to get him fixed up with a hire car and to the ferry.
The grand old man passed away while he was over in Netherlands on his reunion, happy and amongst friends.
I might have had a dust speck in my eye at one point.
It would appear that much of the presentation dialogue was lifted word for word from the book of Irving which I am just reading. He isn't happy with either the BBC or Mr.C. It is an unbelievable read which I can't put down.
Some of the US seamen were pretty undisciplined, some might say almost mutinous with one lot even deliberately running their ship aground then camping ashore & refusing to go back aboard so other crews whose ships were sunk & they had found themselves on the same shore took over & got her off.
Another was far worse though best to read about it.
Anyway try to get the book it is a finely researched detailed read.
http://www.fpp.co.uk/books/PQ17/2009edition.pdf it is in PDF format about 450 pages & free.
Some of the US seamen were pretty undisciplined, some might say almost mutinous with one lot even deliberately running their ship aground then camping ashore & refusing to go back aboard so other crews whose ships were sunk & they had found themselves on the same shore took over & got her off.
Another was far worse though best to read about it.
Anyway try to get the book it is a finely researched detailed read.
http://www.fpp.co.uk/books/PQ17/2009edition.pdf it is in PDF format about 450 pages & free.
LINK FIXED by woodypup59 on Wednesday 15th January 18:50
Edited by woodypup59 on Wednesday 15th January 18:51
FiF said:
Off topic. Watched an episode of Motorway cops yesterday which is a bit out of character for me as it usually boils my wee.
Anyway it was the one where the 91 year old exPara had a problem with his car on the way to the ferry to attend a reunion. Planning to make his last parachute jump too.
Anyway they managed to get him fixed up with a hire car and to the ferry.
The grand old man passed away while he was over in Netherlands on his reunion, happy and amongst friends.
I might have had a dust speck in my eye at one point.
i saw that episode. the guys car had a prang on the side. Im sure if the camera's hadnt been there they'd hae let the guy just go rather than all the hoops they made him jump through. getting the car picked up new hire car missed ferry etc. Anyway it was the one where the 91 year old exPara had a problem with his car on the way to the ferry to attend a reunion. Planning to make his last parachute jump too.
Anyway they managed to get him fixed up with a hire car and to the ferry.
The grand old man passed away while he was over in Netherlands on his reunion, happy and amongst friends.
I might have had a dust speck in my eye at one point.
Halmyre said:
If you have to go I suppose there are worse ways to go; better than being pitched into near-freezing water and dying of exposure.
I had an uncle who was on the Murmask convoys. Something of a hero of mine and I've mentioned him once or twice on PH before. He was on QP16, the one before. His skin was pock-marked and I used to think he had had smallpox but it seems that when the air temperature became fantastically cold the spray from the sea would be super cooled and by the time it hit his skin it was cold enough to permanently damage it. He once tried to clear a machine gun - he was on an armed merchantman - and took his gloves off to do so. He touched the gun, which only recently had been fired so I would assume should have been warm, and his skin stuck to it. As he pulled it away, he left some on the gun. He said he could see the bone.
He went below, had the tip removed, and then went back up again. No anaesthetic needed as his hand was so cold. Felt it later he reckoned and got drunk. He reckoned falling into the sea was a quick way of going as it accelerated your heart so much that you died of a heart attack even before you could drown, let alone freeze to death.
He went on the North Atlantic convoys after he got so frighted that he would not sleep below decks and so was useless on the Murmansk convoys.
He said that one night in the NA, cold but clear, with a calm sea and a near full Moon, he knew that the U-Boats would have a field day. He said that the norm was that you could not see the other ships in the convoy most of the time but on that night he could see the ones around his ship.
He was looking at a tanker (he volunteered for tankers, telling his wife that it was because of the extra money he got but it was really in the hope that he'd be killed quickly) when it was hit near the front, this being unusual it seems. It went down very quickly but not before the fuel spilled out and it caught fire. Some of the crew made their way towards the back of the boat - I was chilled when I saw Titanic, I nearly had to walk out - as the fire made its way around the boat.
As the flames reached them they had the choice of staying on board and burning to death or jumping in the sea and burning to death. He said that some of them slid down the side of the boat - it was keeling over a bit - and he could see red streaks where the barnacles and stuff ripped the feet and arse from the sailors.
They didn't stop for survivors, they never did he said, it would take too long. In any case, they would have been a sitting target. I forget the number but there were ships hit all night.
He would have periods when he would 'remember', and that led inevitably to drink.
He had cancer and was on opiates. The odd thing is that he would then be sober and in the couple of months before he got so bad that he was dosed up to be comatose, he was at his most lucid. I had nightmares about some of the stories, told in a calm, but almost amused way.
A real hero of mine. He fought in the International Brigade, or at least sailed ships out to the north coast of Spain with supplies for the rebels. He got bombed. In the early part of the war he was on a coastal tramp. One job was to lay on the front deck in view of the helm. When a dive bomber let go its load he would point in the direction that he felt was the best way of going. He laughed when he told me and my brother about it, saying that despite knowing that the helmsman would not blink, he would continue pointing, getting more and more agitated as the bomb got closer. He never got hit, he said, but was splashed a bit and the boat sustained a few leaks.
With regards to the post mentioning that someone who have been heroic ended up cleaning out toilets, when I worked in the City of London I was gaoler and a regular, almost vagrant, used to be brought in every now and again who was called up in the early part of the war, aged around 17, and ended up in North Africa, part of the Desert Rats I think. He then went over to Italy and fought all the way up there. Everyone of his unit that he joined died. He was promoted to officer and reached at least captain, maybe higher, but all he could cope with was casual work at Smithfield Market and sleeping there at one of the shops as a caretaker.
He used to recite all the names of the soldiers who died, saying where and when. He got confused as the war progressed and would forget a name and become angry, kicking the door and sometimes banging his head against it, although I was spared that. One of the gaolers collected a list of the names and we would read them out if he got really upset. He'd say things like: 'Johnson. He was the first to go after I got captain.' that sort of stuff.
We never charged him. There were so many PCs and above who'd been in the army themselves.
One of the gaolers phoned the army welfare and they came down a couple of times and took him away when he got really bad, but he always came back. The bloke had loads of medals, but there he was, fit only to sleep on premises to put off thieves. Really sad.
A nice old boy, well younger than I am now, but old in his head. I once went to buy him a coffee when I was on patrol but the cafe proprietor refused to charge him. They often fed him as well. Kept alive by charity but during the war felt suitable to be promoted to captain, probably around the age of 20 or so.
I was reluctant to watch this programme, fearing that Clarkson might treat it a bit light-heartedly. I recorded it.
There was a bit here and there that was a bit too funny but overall it was enlightening. It was also terrifying.
I was touched by the experiences of the sailors, both those who were left to fend for themselves and those who obviously still feel guilty about fleeing.
I've heard it called the RN's darkest hour.
I could hear my uncle talking at times, especially when they were saying how a sailor looked up to spot which way to steer the boat to avoid a bomb. This was standard procedure. My uncle treated that as a bit of a laugh but that made it all the more frightening to me as a kid.
One thing he said: they used to use steam from the engines to melt the ice on the rigging but it was so cold that the steam would freeze onto it. That's cold.
So thanks a lot of the heads up, chaps. A really sobering programme. All the more for me as most of the male members of my family were in the Merchant Navy. Two who were in the RN died on the same day on separate battleships.
There was a bit here and there that was a bit too funny but overall it was enlightening. It was also terrifying.
I was touched by the experiences of the sailors, both those who were left to fend for themselves and those who obviously still feel guilty about fleeing.
I've heard it called the RN's darkest hour.
I could hear my uncle talking at times, especially when they were saying how a sailor looked up to spot which way to steer the boat to avoid a bomb. This was standard procedure. My uncle treated that as a bit of a laugh but that made it all the more frightening to me as a kid.
One thing he said: they used to use steam from the engines to melt the ice on the rigging but it was so cold that the steam would freeze onto it. That's cold.
So thanks a lot of the heads up, chaps. A really sobering programme. All the more for me as most of the male members of my family were in the Merchant Navy. Two who were in the RN died on the same day on separate battleships.
Derek Smith said:
With regards to the post mentioning that someone who have been heroic ended up cleaning out toilets, when I worked in the City of London I was gaoler and a regular, almost vagrant, used to be brought in every now and again who was called up in the early part of the war, aged around 17, and ended up in North Africa, part of the Desert Rats I think. He then went over to Italy and fought all the way up there. Everyone of his unit that he joined died. He was promoted to officer and reached at least captain, maybe higher, but all he could cope with was casual work at Smithfield Market and sleeping there at one of the shops as a caretaker.
He used to recite all the names of the soldiers who died, saying where and when. He got confused as the war progressed and would forget a name and become angry, kicking the door and sometimes banging his head against it, although I was spared that. One of the gaolers collected a list of the names and we would read them out if he got really upset. He'd say things like: 'Johnson. He was the first to go after I got captain.' that sort of stuff.
We never charged him. There were so many PCs and above who'd been in the army themselves.
One of the gaolers phoned the army welfare and they came down a couple of times and took him away when he got really bad, but he always came back. The bloke had loads of medals, but there he was, fit only to sleep on premises to put off thieves. Really sad.
A nice old boy, well younger than I am now, but old in his head. I once went to buy him a coffee when I was on patrol but the cafe proprietor refused to charge him. They often fed him as well. Kept alive by charity but during the war felt suitable to be promoted to captain, probably around the age of 20 or so.
My grandad was in the Desert Rats 7th Armoured from the start of WW2 and never spoke to my Mum about his service. Too many bad memories for him, never even collected his medals.
Over the last 4 years I've tried to piece together his service history with with just "7th Armoured" as a starting point with not much success . I always remember a long letter I retrieved from his house just before he went into a home which was related to his service but this went missing straight after. I never did read it at that point.
Well, I'm pleased to say that 16 years later it has been found again and now know he was known the 11th Hussars. This means he done the whole lot; North Africa, Normandy, Holland and Germany! So basically a hero. Gutted I never got the chance to call him that before he died in 2002
Anyway. Here is the absolutely fascinating letter for the Brigadier General of the 11th Hussars which details their European exploits. This letter is typed so it's probably the first time its been read in nearly 70 years...
issuu.com/crackfoxm3/docs/11th_hussars?e=10575206/6443767
About 20 odd years ago I got speaking to an American who was a merchant seaman in the war. He'd survived a harrowing Arctic convoy and then managed to join a ship headed to the West Indies. He thought this would be a cake walk by comparison, but the ship got torpedoed by a U-Boat and he had to spend a few days bobbing around the Caribbean in a lifeboat before they were picked up. Oops. He was quite a guy.
southerndriver said:
FiF said:
Heads up, tonight Dec 28 2022, BBC4 9pm.
Thanks for the advance notice but.....when I joined the channel at about 9.25pm some other programme had been substituted even though the online guide still said PQ17.Grumble.
) with Tom Hanks is worth a watch.Gassing Station | TV, Film, Video Streaming & Radio | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff