PQ 17: An Arctic Convoy Disaster - Jeremy Clarkson
Discussion
telecat said:
Pound at the time was the Healthiest Admiral available to take the post of First Sea Lord. That is not saying much. He basically won the Battle of the Atlantic against the German Submarine Fleet. He is also credited with stopping Churchill sending the Main Fleet into the Baltic which would have had grave consequences. Unfortunately he also let the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau slip out of his grasp as well as the PQ-17 incident.
I did think his representation was a bit harsh. An impossible decision to makeChicane-UK said:
On the subject of the arctic star, my great uncle flew Short Sunderland bombers during the war and was shot down and killed on submarine patrol above the arctic circle. We applied for the medal as he should be eligible for it - which we hope to be able to give to my grandma (his sister) who's still alive.
Keep at them, we have finally got my grandfathers bomber command medal after countless letters/e-mails but it took a whilegwm said:
telecat said:
Pound at the time was the Healthiest Admiral available to take the post of First Sea Lord. That is not saying much. He basically won the Battle of the Atlantic against the German Submarine Fleet. He is also credited with stopping Churchill sending the Main Fleet into the Baltic which would have had grave consequences. Unfortunately he also let the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau slip out of his grasp as well as the PQ-17 incident.
I did think his representation was a bit harsh. An impossible decision to makeAnother triumph of a documentary from Clarkson. His "Jezza" Top Gear persona can be forgiven if it allows him to make these sort of things. Hat tip to the BBC as well they do these things so well.
On the subject of Pound, we do have the benefit of hindsight, full information, etc that he did not, and although he ignored his analysts own view, we have to remember the buck stops with him, and he had limited resources that had to be carefully conserved to carry out operations all over the world, etc. which is not to say he was not culpable, but it's war, and the fog of war, etc, etc, even with enigma decripts etc, there is never a definite position, a lot of instinct at play. Sadly it goes wrong. "Lions led by donkeys" is an easy line to play, it's never that simple.
I hope selling millions of TG related product enables JC to get more of these programmes commissioned.
Lest we forget.... And doom ourselves to make similar mistakes in the future.
On the subject of Pound, we do have the benefit of hindsight, full information, etc that he did not, and although he ignored his analysts own view, we have to remember the buck stops with him, and he had limited resources that had to be carefully conserved to carry out operations all over the world, etc. which is not to say he was not culpable, but it's war, and the fog of war, etc, etc, even with enigma decripts etc, there is never a definite position, a lot of instinct at play. Sadly it goes wrong. "Lions led by donkeys" is an easy line to play, it's never that simple.
I hope selling millions of TG related product enables JC to get more of these programmes commissioned.
Lest we forget.... And doom ourselves to make similar mistakes in the future.
Having looked closer there were two "Heavy" covering forces The first at 200Miles away consisted of Home Fleet Battleships and the second A mixed group of Aircraft carrier, Two Battleships, two cruisers and six destroyers. It looks like the cover should have been enough even if you though Tirpitz was loose.
telecat said:
Having looked closer there were two "Heavy" covering forces The first at 200Miles away consisted of Home Fleet Battleships and the second A mixed group of Aircraft carrier, Two Battleships, two cruisers and six destroyers. It looks like the cover should have been enough even if you though Tirpitz was loose.
I believe it was the second mixed group; the one JC said was 30 miles out from the convoy, that turned around and sailed back with QP13 to Iceland. Certainly several ships are listed as escorting both convoys and they could only have done so by reversing course. The Home Fleet ships were too far off to give protection from attackers in bombers and submarines and Russian air cover was non-existent.I had an uncle who went through the whole of WW2 in the merchant marine, Artic convoys and all, he was in it from a boy before the war sarted.
When he was on leave, which he wasn't very often, he was often accused of not doing his duty and taking the easy way out and generally looked down on.
When he was on leave, which he wasn't very often, he was often accused of not doing his duty and taking the easy way out and generally looked down on.
Another interesting and highly informative programme from Jeremy Clarkson. Interesting that Merchant Seamen's wages were stopped when their ship sank. I was watching a programme ther other week on shipwrecks and that said that Royal Navy sailors used to have their wages stopped when their boat sank but that this was repealled in the 19th Century. Strange that it was still rule in the Merchant fleet in the the mid 20th century.
Riley Blue said:
telecat said:
Having looked closer there were two "Heavy" covering forces The first at 200Miles away consisted of Home Fleet Battleships and the second A mixed group of Aircraft carrier, Two Battleships, two cruisers and six destroyers. It looks like the cover should have been enough even if you though Tirpitz was loose.
I believe it was the second mixed group; the one JC said was 30 miles out from the convoy, that turned around and sailed back with QP13 to Iceland. Certainly several ships are listed as escorting both convoys and they could only have done so by reversing course. The Home Fleet ships were too far off to give protection from attackers in bombers and submarines and Russian air cover was non-existent.
telecat said:
Riley Blue said:
telecat said:
Having looked closer there were two "Heavy" covering forces The first at 200Miles away consisted of Home Fleet Battleships and the second A mixed group of Aircraft carrier, Two Battleships, two cruisers and six destroyers. It looks like the cover should have been enough even if you though Tirpitz was loose.
I believe it was the second mixed group; the one JC said was 30 miles out from the convoy, that turned around and sailed back with QP13 to Iceland. Certainly several ships are listed as escorting both convoys and they could only have done so by reversing course. The Home Fleet ships were too far off to give protection from attackers in bombers and submarines and Russian air cover was non-existent.ASHANTI AYRSHIRE BLANKNEY BRITOMART CUMBERLAND
DIANELLA DOUGLAS DUKE OF YORK ESCAPADE FAULKNOR
FURY HALCYON KEPPEL LA MALOUINE LEAMINGTON
LEDBURY LONDON LORD AUSTIN LOTUS MARNE
MARTIN MAYRANT MIDDLETON NIGERIA NORFOLK
NORTHERN GEM OFFA ONSLAUGHT ONSLOW P 614
P 615 PALOMARES POPPY POZARICA RHIND
ROWAN SALAMANDER TUSCALOOSA VICTORIOUS WAINWRIGHT
WASHINGTON WHEATLAND WICHITA WILTON
And these to QP13:
ACHATES ALYNBANK ASHANTI BLANKNEY BRAMBLE
CUMBERLAND DOUGLAS DUKE OF YORK FAULKNOR GARLAND
GREMYASCHI GROZNI HAZARD HONEYSUCKLE HUSSAR
HYDERABAD INGLEFIELD INTREPID KUIBYSHEV LADY MADELEINE
LEDA MARNE MARTIN MAYRANT MIDDLETON
NIGER NIGERIA ONSLAUGHT ONSLOW RHIND
ROSELYS SEAGULL ST. ELSTAN STARWORT TRIDENT
VICTORIOUS VOLUNTEER WASHINGTON WHEATLAND
Presumably those in both lists switched convoys at the cross over point or soon after?
My knowledge of Arctic convoys is limited as my Dad's convoy escort duties were confined to up and down the east coast from Harwich to Flamborough Head and back on HMS Kittiwake.
Northern Munkee said:
On the subject of Pound, we do have the benefit of hindsight, full information, etc that he did not, and although he ignored his analysts own view, we have to remember the buck stops with him, and he had limited resources that had to be carefully conserved to carry out operations all over the world, etc. which is not to say he was not culpable, but it's war, and the fog of war, etc, etc, even with enigma decripts etc, there is never a definite position, a lot of instinct at play. Sadly it goes wrong. "Lions led by donkeys" is an easy line to play, it's never that simple.
I broadly agree with your sentiments in the way that I alway try and give the C/O at the time the beneift of the doubt, as hindsight is a cracking management tool. I am 'Pro-Haig' for example.However, for me, this was a failure on two levels. Firstly, IMHO Pound jumped at a shadow. Entirely possible they were scarred by the Hood's run in with the Bismark, but still its not really an excuse.
I may have missed something, and I am prepared to take it all back if I have, but my thoughts are:
It would be unlikely the Tirpitz (which never left its hidy hole in the entire war) slipping anchor would generate some fairly serious radio traffic in the run up. It is unlikely that BP would have missed this. Therefore you could argue that at the crucial point Pound made a knee jerk choice instead of taking a broader view.
Secondly, in my view, a defence should be set up for a worst case scenario. When they thought the Tirpitz was around, they pulled the first line of defence back in order to save the ships. Well, if you are doing this, why risk the ships in the first place?
- I know nothing about the subject outside of what I heard last night. If anyone has any other bits of evidence they could through in the pot it would be very interesting. However, those are my initial thoughts.
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