For The Love of Cars

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chris watton

22,477 posts

259 months

Wednesday 23rd April 2014
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burger81 said:
I'm not bothered, u get used to it on forums. But that's why I come on them - to find out about cars u don't know much about.
And that is why that programme was good, taught me things I had no idea about!
I knew virtually zilch about cars until I bought and played the first gran Turismo on PS1 - before then, I thought my L-reg 1994 Ford Escort 1.8LX was very fast and quite brilliant!

If you'd have asked me back then about MK1 Escorts, I too wouldn't have had a clue - I don't know a lot now, but I do love learning more as now, I absolutely love cars and driving - it is not fair that some feel the need to take the piss because they know a little more than you regarding one tiny and virtually insignificant snippet of history on one particular car. smile

e21Mark

16,205 posts

172 months

Wednesday 23rd April 2014
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rgw2012 said:
burger81 said:
Jeez I can't know everything about every great car ever made! Obviously I have heard of these cars but I don't know them inside out.
That's why I was surprised they were rwd being from my era.
It's nice to come on here & learn, not be shot down because my knowledge doesn't equal yours.
Yes I could see the cars squatting & spinning up from the rear but as they were the rally & Harris modified ones I was unsure if that was standard or a mod that was common.
Now I know something I didn't before!
Don't worry mate, welcome to Pistonheads where people try to belittle you at every opportunity because they know everything about everything to do with cars and if you don't, you're deemed an idiot not worthy of being on a motoring forum. It's tedious and rude but you have to overlook it or you'll get drawn into arguments worthy of a pantomime smile

Oh no he won't, oh yes he will - there, done it before someone else does!
If I've belittled you Burger81, then I apologise. I thought we were just answering your question about RWD.

burger81

249 posts

155 months

Wednesday 23rd April 2014
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e21Mark said:
If I've belittled you Burger81, then I apologise. I thought we were just answering your question about RWD.
Not belittled at all mate! It's hard to decipher tone from writing sometimes!

Why do people think with a formula that was so successful back then - light, rwd, pinion rack steering & that sold so many, it's not done anymore on small hatchbacks? Times moved on?

Halmyre

11,148 posts

138 months

Wednesday 23rd April 2014
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burger81 said:
Not belittled at all mate! It's hard to decipher tone from writing sometimes!

Why do people think with a formula that was so successful back then - light, rwd, pinion rack steering & that sold so many, it's not done anymore on small hatchbacks? Times moved on?
Weight: body-shell strengthening to pass modern crash tests, airbags, electrical gizmos, sound-deadening insulation, more luxurious trim levels; all add weight.

RWD: FWD is more compact as regards engine/drive train/powered wheels layout, better traction in icy/slippery conditions and is supposedly safer; frees up space in the body shell for passengers and luggage.

R&P steering: still the norm.

velocemitch

3,795 posts

219 months

Wednesday 23rd April 2014
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FWD was revolutionary in the 60's, very few car manufacturers went that way. BL (Morris/Austin) being one of the first with the Mini, 1100, Maxi, etc. Fiat had been there too with the 127, 128 and a little later Alfa with the Sud.

But RWD was easier and known technology, even well into the seventies most cars were driven from the back. Talbot Sunbeam, Vauxhall Chevette, Hillman Avenger etc

When I was first driving late seventies, early eighties front wheel drive cars seemed like the way to go (and they obviously were!). I drove Ford Sierra's RWD felt they were rubbish and Vauxhall Cavaliers which were FWD and thought they were brilliant. A Mk1 Astra for instance, was so much easier to drive fast than say a Mk 2 Escort. That tended to be the view expressed by the Journalists at the time too, I'm not sure when things changed, now everybody just knows Rear Wheel Drive is better, it's the law to think so.

Apologies to Berger81, my post wasn't really fair, it's just sometimes us old buggers forget how much has changed in our time and we take for granted that some things are common knowledge when they clearly aren't.



Edited by velocemitch on Wednesday 23 April 13:01

aeropilot

34,299 posts

226 months

Wednesday 23rd April 2014
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velocemitch said:
When I was first driving late seventies, early eighties front wheel drive cars seemed like the way to go (and they obviously were!). I drove Ford Sierra's RWD felt they were rubbish and Vauxhall Cavaliers which were FWD and thought they were brilliant. A Mk1 Astra for instance, was so much easier to drive fast than say a Mk 2 Escort.
Same era as me, but with opposite views.

I never thought the first fwd Astra was brilliant, it was awful, as was the Mk3 Escort.
You have to remember, the Mk3 Escort was only Ford 2nd ver fwd car after the Fiesta, so after decades of rwd it was going to take another decade or so to get this new fangled tech sorted laugh
Vauxhall, likewise, with the Nova and Astra and Cavalier. I laughed the first time I drove a Mk2 Cavalier (first fwd version) as it was crap, after the lovely chassis that was the original rwd Cavalier.
The Sierra wasn't rubbish because it was rwd, it was just err.....rubbish wink (Cossie versions excepting)

I've owned many fwd cars out of necessity (or forced to in case of a couple of company cars) and driven a lot more that I've not owned.........and only THREE stick in my mind as fun or enjoyable to drive....

Morris Cooper S 1275
Alfa-Sud Ti
Saab 900 Turbo







e21Mark

16,205 posts

172 months

Wednesday 23rd April 2014
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I think a lot of younger drivers are steered away from RWD nowadays too? (excuse the pun) I've heard people say about how tricky it can be and that a bit too much power, too early in a corner, will result in death and destruction.

One of the reasons the MX5 was such a huge success, was that it went back to the formula of a light, simplistic, RWD design. Albeit as a 2 seater. Today, the GT86 runs along similar lines. Light, RWD cars with minimal grip are just good fun. Plus you don't need to be going at silly speeds.

Laurel Green

30,770 posts

231 months

Wednesday 23rd April 2014
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e21Mark said:
I think a lot of younger drivers are steered away from RWD nowadays too? (excuse the pun) I've heard people say about how tricky it can be and that a bit too much power, too early in a corner, will result in death and destruction.

One of the reasons the MX5 was such a huge success, was that it went back to the formula of a light, simplistic, RWD design. Albeit as a 2 seater. Today, the GT86 runs along similar lines. Light, RWD cars with minimal grip are just good fun. Plus you don't need to be going at silly speeds.
Once one has passed the test 'tis the best way to learn how to drive a car. yes

zeb

3,193 posts

217 months

Wednesday 23rd April 2014
quotequote all
burger81 said:
Jeez I can't know everything about every great car ever made! Obviously I have heard of these cars but I don't know them inside out.
That's why I was surprised they were rwd being from my era.
It's nice to come on here & learn, not be shot down because my knowledge doesn't equal yours.
Yes I could see the cars squatting & spinning up from the rear but as they were the rally & Harris modified ones I was unsure if that was standard or a mod that was common.
Now I know something I didn't before!
Fair play to you fella, thats how the rest of learnt (long time ago though!) yes

velocemitch

3,795 posts

219 months

Wednesday 23rd April 2014
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aeropilot said:
Same era as me, but with opposite views.

I never thought the first fwd Astra was brilliant, it was awful, as was the Mk3 Escort.
You have to remember, the Mk3 Escort was only Ford 2nd ver fwd car after the Fiesta, so after decades of rwd it was going to take another decade or so to get this new fangled tech sorted laugh
Vauxhall, likewise, with the Nova and Astra and Cavalier. I laughed the first time I drove a Mk2 Cavalier (first fwd version) as it was crap, after the lovely chassis that was the original rwd Cavalier.
The Sierra wasn't rubbish because it was rwd, it was just err.....rubbish wink (Cossie versions excepting)

I've owned many fwd cars out of necessity (or forced to in case of a couple of company cars) and driven a lot more that I've not owned.........and only THREE stick in my mind as fun or enjoyable to drive....

Morris Cooper S 1275
Alfa-Sud Ti
Saab 900 Turbo
Yeah.. you see I just missed rear wheel drive, my first Cars were a Mini, then a Polo, then a series of Astra's, so I didn't 'get' RWD until I bought my 105 Alfa as a classic well into my middle age. I do see it now and I'd have a Mk1 Escort like a shot, but back then the rear driven stuff I only ever drove as a learner (Sunbeam, Vauxhall Magnum, Mk2) so didn't understand it properly. Did like my VX's then though, probably because they were damned quick, which ever end they were driven from. smile

Must try at least two of the trio you mentioned, driven 900's, but not the Turbo, will be driving the Cooper S soon as I navigate in one and he's putting me on the insurance, Alfa Sud has to be rite of passage to an Alfisti, so one day I expect it will happen.

onyx39

11,109 posts

149 months

Wednesday 23rd April 2014
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I now have yet another reason to win the lottery!

e21Mark

16,205 posts

172 months

Wednesday 23rd April 2014
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I've had 4 FWD cars that I enjoyed driving. A 1.5ti Alfasud, an Audi Coupe GT, a Renault 5 Gordini turbo and a 1962 Mini (my first car). Given the choice though, I just prefer RWD cars. Especially those of the 70's and 80's.

Escorts are just so expensive now though. I guess that's why people are looking at cheaper alternatives, like the Chevette, e21 and Manta etc?

s m

23,164 posts

202 months

Wednesday 23rd April 2014
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e21Mark said:
I've had 4 FWD cars that I enjoyed driving. A 1.5ti Alfasud, an Audi Coupe GT, a Renault 5 Gordini turbo and a 1962 Mini (my first car). Given the choice though, I just prefer RWD cars. Especially those of the 70's and 80's.

Escorts are just so expensive now though. I guess that's why people are looking at cheaper alternatives, like the Chevette, e21 and Manta etc?
Mantas were a bit behind the Escort in terms of values rising but they're certainly going up now. Not the parts supply like there is for the Fords though. Still a fun drive with the right bits - I owned a GTE for nearly 7 years - interesting comparison with the similar power Mk2 RS2000

e21Mark

16,205 posts

172 months

Thursday 24th April 2014
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s m said:
e21Mark said:
I've had 4 FWD cars that I enjoyed driving. A 1.5ti Alfasud, an Audi Coupe GT, a Renault 5 Gordini turbo and a 1962 Mini (my first car). Given the choice though, I just prefer RWD cars. Especially those of the 70's and 80's.

Escorts are just so expensive now though. I guess that's why people are looking at cheaper alternatives, like the Chevette, e21 and Manta etc?
Mantas were a bit behind the Escort in terms of values rising but they're certainly going up now. Not the parts supply like there is for the Fords though. Still a fun drive with the right bits - I owned a GTE for nearly 7 years - interesting comparison with the similar power Mk2 RS2000
I'm sure you're right. I know BMW 2002's have gone the same way and even e21 are on the up. I think e21 are a bargain alternative to a MK2 Escort, but then I am a bit biased I guess? smile Escort and E30 M3 values seem to have impacted on the values of the competition. It isn't all that long ago that people would have laughed at the idea of spending £20k+ on either.

Philbar

242 posts

225 months

Thursday 24th April 2014
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I think this shows the benefits and beauty of RWD....

http://youtu.be/4PJCOuIwlZI

s m

23,164 posts

202 months

Thursday 24th April 2014
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e21Mark said:
I'm sure you're right. I know BMW 2002's have gone the same way and even e21 are on the up. I think e21 are a bargain alternative to a MK2 Escort, but then I am a bit biased I guess? smile Escort and E30 M3 values seem to have impacted on the values of the competition. It isn't all that long ago that people would have laughed at the idea of spending £20k+ on either.
Not a Mexico Mark but imagine the value of this now?



15 years ago - also multiple E30 M3s in same issue at 5k and under asking price

speedking31

3,543 posts

135 months

Thursday 24th April 2014
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I had a Mk 2 1600 Sport in signal orange. No mention of them frown

Unfortunately it was very rusty, I was ripped off. It died going sideways and snapping a telegraph pole just after completing a couple of tasty overtakes in the snow.

chris watton

22,477 posts

259 months

Thursday 24th April 2014
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I didn't realise just how huge the original Mini scene is! My wife has suddenly got a passion for the original Mini after I got her a 'Bini Cooper S - now she wants to restore an original example!

I think part of the attraction is their relative simplicity, which applies to many classics - I think some miss this.

s m

23,164 posts

202 months

Thursday 24th April 2014
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speedking31 said:
I had a Mk 2 1600 Sport in signal orange. No mention of them frown

Unfortunately it was very rusty, I was ripped off. It died going sideways and snapping a telegraph pole just after completing a couple of tasty overtakes in the snow.
I had a few Mk2s - Pintos and X-flow engined ones, even got to drive a BDA engined one a few times.

Always a bit of debate about "which handled best" amongst my friends.

No different to car enthusiasts today! smile

Spanglepants

1,743 posts

136 months

Thursday 24th April 2014
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Used to have an orange MK1 Escort Sport 1300.

One thing that was said in the show was that the MK1 started the boy racer craze. As I remember - I lived in South London back then - I saw more Capris "done up" .
Most of my neighbours at the time were Greek/Cypriot and the lads had Mk1 Capris . One in particular i remember was a yellow one, V4 with chrome rocker covers and filter with a chrome foot shaped throttle pedal and La Cucharacha air horns.