Royal Marines Commando School

[FiF]

Mr Trophy said:

Zoobeef said:

Whereas in 9 years and 3 operational tours I have never had a stoppage on the sa80 or carbine. Some say it's how it's cleaned.....

lo

Question, if the gun jams, how does the chap fail, surely guns fault no?

The point is that he has to keep the weapon serviceable throughout the endurance run and demonstrate that at the end both it and he are capable of delivering a minimum number of rounds on target within a maximum alloted time.

It is what it is.

Any other system is not sensibly sustainable. This person suffered due to mechanical failure. Pass. This person suffered due to letting the weapon fill with mud. Fail.

Whilst that sounds a simple analysis in the cold light, in reality it is not easy to do that across the spectrum. Really not practical.

There is a very clear pass/fail criteria. Sometimes life sucks, st happens, sort it and move on, which is also part of the lesson.

[civicduty]

Zoobeef said:

z4RRSchris99 said:

used to use them a lot in CCF, pile of ste used to jam every magazine

Whereas in 9 years and 3 operational tours I have never had a stoppage on the sa80 or carbine. Some say it's how it's cleaned.....

Whereas I have had a stoppage after firing less than a magazine, on a weapon fresh out of the armoury that morning, on guard force training.

[anonymous-user]

civicduty said:

Zoobeef said:

....9 years and 3 operational tours....

...guard force training.

[oddball1973]

what was the logic in issuing a battle rifle that in no circumstance can be used left handed without removing the users face and teeth, being a leftie I was never that good with it in CCF as I had to use my weak eye to aim, I actually used to prefer the Enfield .303, I could operate it faster than the SA80 as well and those things were indestructible.

[petop]

No offence but comparing something you got in CCF and something that is issued to troops out in areas of operation is totally different!
The latest version (although getting on a bit now) is fine as long as you look after it. If you dont then it wont!! Having fired the American M4 more times than i can count, i prefer the SA80. The M4 is just easier to handle due to the weight distribution.

[Delbox]

The greater issue related to the trainee whose weapon stopped firing was his inability to clear the stoppage in a timely manner and continue to fire. A stoppage is always a risk and drills taught and practiced to deal with the consequences. If you knew what to do then you would have noted that he didn't deal with the problem properly; sad, but true. Another lesson learned by the young man - and it might save his, and/or others, life in combat.

[prand]

Delbox said:

The greater issue related to the trainee whose weapon stopped firing was his inability to clear the stoppage in a timely manner and continue to fire. A stoppage is always a risk and drills taught and practiced to deal with the consequences. If you knew what to do then you would have noted that he didn't deal with the problem properly; sad, but true. Another lesson learned by the young man - and it might save his, and/or others, life in combat.

Yes, first time it looked like he was panicking trying to clear the rifle and timed out. Second time round it jammed again but it appeared he had got off enough rounds to pass, big lesson learned.

One thing I think is a bit of a shame is that there are clearly recruits getting round looking pretty fit and competent, but these don't get a mention on the show, mainly because their journey through selection is just not "interesting" enough. When they passed out, I felt for some of the units receiving some of those who scraped through!

[topsprayer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOTJlO6p9yo

If you watch any of the paras then there is the big Scottish bloke that constantly struggles in the tests, feels like he would be useless but they judge him on his determination. Check out the comments in that vid....he did 20 years in service and ended up as a Sgt. So it would seem that you judge someone on their attitude and how hard they try opposed to if they scraped through or not.

I also agree re the gun jamming I dont think it was cause his gun jammed more cause he couldn't deal with it jamming. If you were in a fire fight being rushed and had a jammed riffle you couldn't say to the enemy "alright chaps give me a minute the bloody gun has broke". You'd have to deal with it and do it quickly. They can't guarantee that it won't ever jam!

Edited by topsprayer on Wednesday 27th August 16:32

[oddball1973]

petop said:

No offence but comparing something you got in CCF and something that is issued to troops out in areas of operation is totally different!
The latest version (although getting on a bit now) is fine as long as you look after it. If you dont then it wont!! Having fired the American M4 more times than i can count, i prefer the SA80. The M4 is just easier to handle due to the weight distribution.

I wouldn't argue with you, and would never compare doing 2 years in the CCF to the actual military experience but I still stand by that fact that the inability of the weapon to used left handed was a really bad decision, I know you can adapt your style but fundamentally 1 in 10 people are going to struggle with the thing.

[0000]

topsprayer said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOTJlO6p9yo

If you watch any of the paras then there is the big Scottish bloke that constantly struggles in the tests, feels like he would be useless but they judge him on his determination. Check out the comments in that vid....he did 20 years in service and ended up as a Sgt. So it would seem that you judge someone on their attitude and how hard they try opposed to if they scraped through or not.

These are interesting too, thanks for the link.

[Langweilig]

oddball1973 said:

what was the logic in issuing a battle rifle that in no circumstance can be used left handed without removing the users face and teeth, being a leftie I was never that good with it in CCF as I had to use my weak eye to aim, I actually used to prefer the Enfield .303, I could operate it faster than the SA80 as well and those things were indestructible.

I used to work in a museum which housed military exhibits - many deactivated historic small arms together with modern weapons. There were several SA80 rifles on display.

Quite a few visitors were ex-servicemen. When they saw the SA80's in the display cases, their reaction was almost always the same:-

"That fg Airfix kit of a rifle!"

[Zoobeef]

Langweilig said:

I used to work in a museum which housed military exhibits - many deactivated historic small arms together with modern weapons. There were several SA80 rifles on display.

Quite a few visitors were ex-servicemen. When they saw the SA80's in the display cases, their reaction was almost always the same:-

"That fg Airfix kit of a rifle!"

I genuinely think they are only referring to the A1 as No-one that currently uses it complains about it.
Complainers seem to be people that have never used it or people that were around for the slr/sa80 but then left before the A2 came in.

[alfa phil]

SLR all day , had one for near on 9 yrs cant recall having many blockages in that , if you did it was your own bloody fault.

[Turn7]

alfa phil said:

SLR all day , had one for near on 9 yrs cant recall having many blockages in that , if you did it was your own bloody fault.

Down to maintenance ?

[Ginetta G15 Girl]

The rifle is the IW (Individual Weapon) or L85 (in its current guise L85A2).

SA80 is the term for the family of weapons, standing as it does for: 'Small Arms 1980'. It is not the name of the rifle per sé despite usage to the contrary by those who really ought to know better.

This family currently includes the IW/L85, the LSW/L86 (also currently in A2 guise), the Carbine/L22A1, and the Cadet Rifle/L98 (currently in A2 guise).

Cadets don't get to fire the L85, that's what the L98 is for (since it lacks the change lever and thus, the automatic fire capability). Ergo I call shennanigans. There was a .22" rim fire conversion for the L85A1 (the L41A1) but that hasn't been around in at least a decade.

To say left handed people can not be trained to fire it is utter cac. They can and are - they have to be trained to shoot right handed. The problem comes with those who are right handed but left eye dominant.

I fired one of the originals on a visit to the School of Infantry at Warminster in 1982. At that stage it was still 4.75mm (.18") calibre and, following a field strip could, with about 90 seconds further work, be convrted from RH to LH.

Sadly some idiocy got involved and this conversion option was binned. Furthermore they decided to put the cocking handle on the 'wrong' side in an effort to, and I quote: 'make the weapon safer' (!).

Anyone who knows their way around this family of weapons knows that the bolt, bolt carrier, and receiver derive directly from the Sterling built AR-18 (itself a derivative of the original Armalite design). The nature of the receiver/bolt interface are such that dirt here can cause problems. This was exacerbated by putting the cocking lever on the 'wrong' side and only partially remedied by the 'Forward Assist' drill.

If you think an L85 is bad for stoppages try firing an early M16/KAR15 with the execreble centrally mouted charging lever! Modern M16s (M16A4) as well as the M4 have a side mounted, angled charging lever which goes some way (but not enough) towards aleviating the problem.


I must have fired several thousand rounds through the L85A1, both competetively and as an RCO/OiC Station Shooting, not once did I have a stoppage. I think that, while there were issues with the early iterations of the weapon, much of what is blithely trotted out is utter drivel repeated by those who really don't know jack about it.

[jimbop1]

topsprayer said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOTJlO6p9yo

If you watch any of the paras then there is the big Scottish bloke that constantly struggles in the tests, feels like he would be useless but they judge him on his determination. Check out the comments in that vid....he did 20 years in service and ended up as a Sgt. So it would seem that you judge someone on their attitude and how hard they try opposed to if they scraped through or not.

I also agree re the gun jamming I dont think it was cause his gun jammed more cause he couldn't deal with it jamming. If you were in a fire fight being rushed and had a jammed riffle you couldn't say to the enemy "alright chaps give me a minute the bloody gun has broke". You'd have to deal with it and do it quickly. They can't guarantee that it won't ever jam!

Edited by topsprayer on Wednesday 27th August 16:32

I didn't see any guns.

Look at the paras.. So ally

[oddball1973]

Ginetta G15 Girl said:

The rifle is the IW (Individual Weapon) or L85 (in its current guise L85A2).

SA80 is the term for the family of weapons, standing as it does for: 'Small Arms 1980'. It is not the name of the rifle per sé despite usage to the contrary by those who really ought to know better.

This family currently includes the IW/L85, the LSW/L86 (also currently in A2 guise), the Carbine/L22A1, and the Cadet Rifle/L98 (currently in A2 guise).

Cadets don't get to fire the L85, that's what the L98 is for (since it lacks the change lever and thus, the automatic fire capability). Ergo I call shennanigans. There was a .22" rim fire conversion for the L85A1 (the L41A1) but that hasn't been around in at least a decade.

To say left handed people can not be trained to fire it is utter cac. They can and are - they have to be trained to shoot right handed. The problem comes with those who are right handed but left eye dominant.

I fired one of the originals on a visit to the School of Infantry at Warminster in 1982. At that stage it was still 4.75mm (.18") calibre and, following a field strip could, with about 90 seconds further work, be convrted from RH to LH.

Sadly some idiocy got involved and this conversion option was binned. Furthermore they decided to put the cocking handle on the 'wrong' side in an effort to, and I quote: 'make the weapon safer' (!).

Anyone who knows their way around this family of weapons knows that the bolt, bolt carrier, and receiver derive directly from the Sterling built AR-18 (itself a derivative of the original Armalite design). The nature of the receiver/bolt interface are such that dirt here can cause problems. This was exacerbated by putting the cocking lever on the 'wrong' side and only partially remedied by the 'Forward Assist' drill.

If you think an L85 is bad for stoppages try firing an early M16/KAR15 with the execreble centrally mouted charging lever! Modern M16s (M16A4) as well as the M4 have a side mounted, angled charging lever which goes some way (but not enough) towards aleviating the problem.


I must have fired several thousand rounds through the L85A1, both competetively and as an RCO/OiC Station Shooting, not once did I have a stoppage. I think that, while there were issues with the early iterations of the weapon, much of what is blithely trotted out is utter drivel repeated by those who really don't know jack about it.

The right handed left eye dominant bit....that's me. Still don't like the thing.

[Ginetta G15 Girl]

oddball1973 said:

The right handed left eye dominant bit....that's me. Still don't like the thing.

That's not what you said earlier on. You said:

oddball1973 said:

being a leftie I was never that good with it in CCF as I had to use my weak eye to aim,

So you are Left Handed, Left Eye Dominant, firing the weapon right handed.

That is a world away from Right Handed, Left Eye Dominant.

The fact that you had problems was down to lack of proper training. Had you had such I doubt you would be as critical of the weapon as you are now.

[Silent1]

Ginetta G15 Girl said:

oddball1973 said:

The right handed left eye dominant bit....that's me. Still don't like the thing.

That's not what you said earlier on. You said:

oddball1973 said:

being a leftie I was never that good with it in CCF as I had to use my weak eye to aim,

So you are Left Handed, Left Eye Dominant, firing the weapon right handed.

That is a world away from Right Handed, Left Eye Dominant.

The fact that you had problems was down to lack of proper training. Had you had such I doubt you would be as critical of the weapon as you are now.

that's one hell of a bhslap

[oddball1973]

I don't follow where you're going with this, i'm right handed with everything apart from two things, shooting a rifle and pulling a bow which i've put down to being left eye dominent and my brain subconciously doing its job to get the best results. Bullst you can be trained naturally to want to be right handed and bullst your weak eye can become as good as your dominent. I've shot clay pigeon for 30 years so i do vaguely know what i'm talking about. shooting as a leftie I will get into the 80's on a 100 bird shoot, switch to right and if I hit 20 it would be a miracle.