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Discussion
Doofus said:
I think Tesla have got onboard the "EVs are just white goods" bandwagon ahead of the rest of the world. All the others are chasing acceleration times, luxury and recharge speeds.
Once the rest of us else catch up to the notion that EVs only work if they're hugely efficient and purely functional, then Tesla's build quality concerns will be normalised.
I don't support EVs as the answer, and I certainly don't support Elon Musk, but I think he's closer to the paradigm than everyone else.
My mate has Model 3 Performance leased through his company. He travels all over the country in it for work, he's done over fifty thousand miles in it in three and a bit years. It's been completely reliable and costs buttons to charge at home. Once the novelty of the silly acceleration wears off (and it does), what you're left with is a very efficient EV supported by an excellent charging network. It's not a car to get passionate about, it's just a tool for doing a job and it does the job very well. When he changes cars, it will be for another one, but just the regular long range.Once the rest of us else catch up to the notion that EVs only work if they're hugely efficient and purely functional, then Tesla's build quality concerns will be normalised.
I don't support EVs as the answer, and I certainly don't support Elon Musk, but I think he's closer to the paradigm than everyone else.
If I was going EV, it would be a Tesla every time. I just wish it had knobs and buttons that you could use without looking away from the road, and a bloody speedo in front of you.
otolith said:
Doofus said:
EVs are not our only future, and at the moment, I think synthetic fuels are coming up on the rail. If that happens, then manufacturers will be able to continue to build their aspirational fast, or luxurious, or 8 seat, or convertible or sporty cars with ICEs, and also the new small, simple, efficient BEVs for urban use.
Normal people will just buy EVs for urban and extra-urban use. The problem I see with selling ICEs in luxury cars is that there won't be enough of them to support a fuelling network. Normal people will just buy EVs for urban and extra-urban use, yes, but the focus at the moment is performance and range. Somehow we need to break free of those obsessions.
A 1000hp EV is pointless and a list price of £150,000+ is ridiculous.
Unreal said:
Millions of people run cars that are maybe worth £3K and don't cost anything like £2400 a year to run. That's all they can afford. They don't have capital and they don't want another monthly.
10000 miles of petrol at 35MPG is £2000, or £167 month. Add annual VED, MOT and maintenance on many a £3k car and you've already got a £200 monthly.10000 miles of electricity on an EV tariff would cost around £200 a year, or 1/10th of the petrol cost at £16.70 a month. £16.70 a month seem reasonable for a new car no if it suits your usage I'd suggest?
otolith said:
Doofus said:
EVs are not our only future, and at the moment, I think synthetic fuels are coming up on the rail. If that happens, then manufacturers will be able to continue to build their aspirational fast, or luxurious, or 8 seat, or convertible or sporty cars with ICEs, and also the new small, simple, efficient BEVs for urban use.
Normal people will just buy EVs for urban and extra-urban use. The problem I see with selling ICEs in luxury cars is that there won't be enough of them to support a fuelling network. SWoll said:
Unreal said:
Millions of people run cars that are maybe worth £3K and don't cost anything like £2400 a year to run. That's all they can afford. They don't have capital and they don't want another monthly.
10000 miles of petrol at 35MPG is £2000, or £167 month. Add annual VED, MOT and maintenance on many a £3k car and you've already got a £200 monthly.10000 miles of electricity on an EV tariff would cost around £200 a year, or 1/10th of the petrol cost at £16.70 a month. £16.70 a month seem reasonable for a new car no if it suits your usage I'd suggest?
Doofus said:
The fuelling network already exists. The EV charging network doesn't.
It's in millions of peoples homes, in fact mine is on my drive charging as we speak. And if not, here are England's rapid charger locations.
thegreenhell said:
Wait until EV take up has gained enough traction for the government to start taxing it proportionately to make up for the lost revenue from declining fossil fuel sales. They aren't going to remain cheap to run forever once they start ramping up VED and add in either an energy tax or road pricing.
Probably be a good idea to get one now and take advantage while you can then?SWoll said:
It's in millions of peoples homes, in fact mine is on my drive charging as we speak.
And if not, here are England's rapid charger locations.
That isn't even accurate, zap map has some weird fidelity issues when you zoom out and makes random dead spots. Like Aberystwyth has Superchargers and 18x CCS at the National Library. But it's blank in that view.And if not, here are England's rapid charger locations.
thegreenhell said:
Wait until EV take up has gained enough traction for the government to start taxing it proportionately to make up for the lost revenue from declining fossil fuel sales. They aren't going to remain cheap to run forever once they start ramping up VED and add in either an energy tax or road pricing.
Electric cars will pay VED from 2025 (well, that's the Tory plan). Which will be somewhat bizarre given there's still plenty of £0 and £30 VED ICE cars available. Evanivitch said:
That isn't even accurate, zap map has some weird fidelity issues when you zoom out and makes random dead spots. Like Aberystwyth has Superchargers and 18x CCS at the National Library. But it's blank in that view.
Was going to add that, but TBH didn't see the point of complicating things. 
SWoll said:
Unreal said:
Millions of people run cars that are maybe worth £3K and don't cost anything like £2400 a year to run. That's all they can afford. They don't have capital and they don't want another monthly.
10000 miles of petrol at 35MPG is £2000, or £167 month. Add annual VED, MOT and maintenance on many a £3k car and you've already got a £200 monthly.10000 miles of electricity on an EV tariff would cost around £200 a year, or 1/10th of the petrol cost at £16.70 a month. £16.70 a month seem reasonable for a new car no if it suits your usage I'd suggest?
SWoll said:
Unreal said:
Millions of people run cars that are maybe worth £3K and don't cost anything like £2400 a year to run. That's all they can afford. They don't have capital and they don't want another monthly.
10000 miles of petrol at 35MPG is £2000, or £167 month. Add annual VED, MOT and maintenance on many a £3k car and you've already got a £200 monthly.10000 miles of electricity on an EV tariff would cost around £200 a year, or 1/10th of the petrol cost at £16.70 a month. £16.70 a month seem reasonable for a new car no if it suits your usage I'd suggest?
CLK-GTR said:
SWoll said:
Probably be a good idea to get one now and take advantage while you can then?
I lnow you think that shows how extensive the charging network is but it does the total opposite. There are some huge empty patches in very busy areas there. Unreal said:
I'd suggest their mileage is much lower than that. A great many will be DIY serviced or otherwise run on a shoestring. Even more won't get credit. These are people like carers, porters and many single parents. They don't live in a world where they can swap their old car for a brand new one for £200 a month on finance or they would. They don't drive a crappy old car out of choice.
Just what I thought was a reasonable comparison. Isn't valid for everyone obviously.Unreal said:
Millions of people run cars that are maybe worth £3K and don't cost anything like £2400 a year to run. That's all they can afford. They don't have capital and they don't want another monthly.
And new cars aren’t for them, and never have been. Let alone EV’s. Good job then that by the time they have to switch in 2050 simply due to the lack of serviceable used ICE not being around anymore, they’ll have a dearth of ratty old EV’s to choose from and a charging network as convenient as todays filling stations. Options for poor people are of zero relevance at this juncture. They can carry on as normal for the next 25 years tipping around in their 750 quid zafiras, or equivalent, like they always have done.
thegreenhell said:
There are currently around 32 million ICE cars on UK roads, and you'll be able to buy a new one for at least 10 more years. The existing petrol distribution network isn't going anywhere for a long time yet.
Indeed, the question of allowing synthetic fuelled vehicles won’t even matter until then. The long term prognosis is extinction, though. It makes no sense for the mass market and niche use needs mass market infrastructure. DonkeyApple said:
I think that one genuinely impressive aspect of the whole brand is that they can build almost as cheaply as a Chinese brand, what is obstensively a white goods, stripped down product but with brand cache. Genuine cache rather than gold painted plastics. There are very few cases in history where a brand has managed that. Brand premium and cheap manufacturing. Arguably that is their true advantage over the incumbent, similarly premium/mid level brands. And more intimidating for the incumbents is that Tesla have been able to add quality in recent years while also cutting costs. Plus, for all the additional manufacturing quality of the mainstream competitors it's not as if their products are subsequently lasting years longer. If one considers a modern car to have a 15-20 year lifespan then Tesla's are looking like they won't be far off and even if they get tattier more quickly the compensation is continual upgrades to the software.
If the car has a 15-20 year life span - does the touch-screen? I've never seen a piece of C21st electronics last that long - and that's without the harsh environment of being bolted into a car. How long will Tesla be supplying those touch screens? I'd be surprised if anyone is going to make a "pattern" copy screen to keep them running on the cheap in 20 years time.dvs_dave said:
Unreal said:
Millions of people run cars that are maybe worth £3K and don't cost anything like £2400 a year to run. That's all they can afford. They don't have capital and they don't want another monthly.
And new cars aren’t for them, and never have been. Let alone EV’s. Good job then that by the time they have to switch in 2050 simply due to the lack of serviceable used ICE not being around anymore, they’ll have a dearth of ratty old EV’s to choose from and a charging network as convenient as todays filling stations. Options for poor people are of zero relevance at this juncture. They can carry on as normal for the next 25 years tipping around in their 750 quid zafiras, or equivalent, like they always have done.
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