Harry's Garage - YouTube
Discussion
SWoll said:
Unreal said:
Millions of people run cars that are maybe worth £3K and don't cost anything like £2400 a year to run. That's all they can afford. They don't have capital and they don't want another monthly.
10000 miles of petrol at 35MPG is £2000, or £167 month. Add annual VED, MOT and maintenance on many a £3k car and you've already got a £200 monthly.10000 miles of electricity on an EV tariff would cost around £200 a year, or 1/10th of the petrol cost at £16.70 a month. £16.70 a month seem reasonable for a new car no if it suits your usage I'd suggest?
SWoll said:
Unreal said:
Millions of people run cars that are maybe worth £3K and don't cost anything like £2400 a year to run. That's all they can afford. They don't have capital and they don't want another monthly.
10000 miles of petrol at 35MPG is £2000, or £167 month. Add annual VED, MOT and maintenance on many a £3k car and you've already got a £200 monthly.10000 miles of electricity on an EV tariff would cost around £200 a year, or 1/10th of the petrol cost at £16.70 a month. £16.70 a month seem reasonable for a new car no if it suits your usage I'd suggest?
CLK-GTR said:
SWoll said:
Probably be a good idea to get one now and take advantage while you can then?
I lnow you think that shows how extensive the charging network is but it does the total opposite. There are some huge empty patches in very busy areas there. Unreal said:
I'd suggest their mileage is much lower than that. A great many will be DIY serviced or otherwise run on a shoestring. Even more won't get credit. These are people like carers, porters and many single parents. They don't live in a world where they can swap their old car for a brand new one for £200 a month on finance or they would. They don't drive a crappy old car out of choice.
Just what I thought was a reasonable comparison. Isn't valid for everyone obviously.Unreal said:
Millions of people run cars that are maybe worth £3K and don't cost anything like £2400 a year to run. That's all they can afford. They don't have capital and they don't want another monthly.
And new cars aren’t for them, and never have been. Let alone EV’s. Good job then that by the time they have to switch in 2050 simply due to the lack of serviceable used ICE not being around anymore, they’ll have a dearth of ratty old EV’s to choose from and a charging network as convenient as todays filling stations. Options for poor people are of zero relevance at this juncture. They can carry on as normal for the next 25 years tipping around in their 750 quid zafiras, or equivalent, like they always have done.
thegreenhell said:
There are currently around 32 million ICE cars on UK roads, and you'll be able to buy a new one for at least 10 more years. The existing petrol distribution network isn't going anywhere for a long time yet.
Indeed, the question of allowing synthetic fuelled vehicles won’t even matter until then. The long term prognosis is extinction, though. It makes no sense for the mass market and niche use needs mass market infrastructure. DonkeyApple said:
I think that one genuinely impressive aspect of the whole brand is that they can build almost as cheaply as a Chinese brand, what is obstensively a white goods, stripped down product but with brand cache. Genuine cache rather than gold painted plastics. There are very few cases in history where a brand has managed that. Brand premium and cheap manufacturing. Arguably that is their true advantage over the incumbent, similarly premium/mid level brands. And more intimidating for the incumbents is that Tesla have been able to add quality in recent years while also cutting costs. Plus, for all the additional manufacturing quality of the mainstream competitors it's not as if their products are subsequently lasting years longer. If one considers a modern car to have a 15-20 year lifespan then Tesla's are looking like they won't be far off and even if they get tattier more quickly the compensation is continual upgrades to the software.
If the car has a 15-20 year life span - does the touch-screen? I've never seen a piece of C21st electronics last that long - and that's without the harsh environment of being bolted into a car. How long will Tesla be supplying those touch screens? I'd be surprised if anyone is going to make a "pattern" copy screen to keep them running on the cheap in 20 years time.dvs_dave said:
Unreal said:
Millions of people run cars that are maybe worth £3K and don't cost anything like £2400 a year to run. That's all they can afford. They don't have capital and they don't want another monthly.
And new cars aren’t for them, and never have been. Let alone EV’s. Good job then that by the time they have to switch in 2050 simply due to the lack of serviceable used ICE not being around anymore, they’ll have a dearth of ratty old EV’s to choose from and a charging network as convenient as todays filling stations. Options for poor people are of zero relevance at this juncture. They can carry on as normal for the next 25 years tipping around in their 750 quid zafiras, or equivalent, like they always have done.
suffolk009 said:
If the car has a 15-20 year life span - does the touch-screen? I've never seen a piece of C21st electronics last that long - and that's without the harsh environment of being bolted into a car. How long will Tesla be supplying those touch screens? I'd be surprised if anyone is going to make a "pattern" copy screen to keep them running on the cheap in 20 years time.
Touchscreens cost 5p and China bangs them out for pretty much everything that was ever made to use them. It's why they're used by manufacturers and why they bolt them on to the dash like a static caravan TV. They're infinitely cheaper than buttons and switches. Hence why more premium builders embed these screens so as to not look phenomenally Bulls Eye star prize but why they also use buttons, switches and dials where they're superior to the super cheap 'on screen' solution because their customers can afford to prioritise functionality, convenience and safety over the monthly cost.
If planning on helping a Tesla to live 20 years the dirt cheap, generic touchscreen would be the least of anyone's worries. The pertinent worries would be everything that the screen is attached to as historically it all starts falling off and peeling off early doors. Stick your typical consumer gibbon inside one for any period of time and the damage they can do is immense. These are cars that require keeping gibbon free if you want it to last.
dvs_dave said:
And new cars aren’t for them, and never have been. Let alone EV’s. Good job then that by the time they have to switch in 2050 simply due to the lack of serviceable used ICE not being around anymore, they’ll have a dearth of ratty old EV’s to choose from and a charging network as convenient as todays filling stations.
Options for poor people are of zero relevance at this juncture. They can carry on as normal for the next 25 years tipping around in their 750 quid zafiras, or equivalent, like they always have done.
Nationally that is very true. EVs today are not aimed remotely at that end of the market. They're a premium spend for those with easy home charging and whose demand will build out the national infrastructure and used fleet over the next 20 years so that other people can switch when they wish without ever having to do a single thing. Options for poor people are of zero relevance at this juncture. They can carry on as normal for the next 25 years tipping around in their 750 quid zafiras, or equivalent, like they always have done.
However, all that logic and social morality goes straight in the bin on land under the control of devolved power bases where it is almost the reverse and the poorest are being specifically pushed out of private car ownership altogether by the use of EVs today when they won't be available to that target demographic until tomorrow.
That's the issue in the U.K. We have a very logical and sound national policy of everyone just switching when they want to and can afford to, where the infrastructure will be created by the more wealthy for the less wealthy over the next 20 years as will the used fleet. And a policy which plays to huge strengths of the U.K. being a very small land mass but with very robust average population density and very high wealth. The U.K. is pretty much the easiest developed nation to switch to EV. But, the local political policies of the regional barons is almost 100% at odds with both the national policy, basic morality and common sense. Their environmental policies precisely target the poor and wholly absolve the affluent. We can switch to EV without giving a second thought, we have driveways and private parking. We are solvent and can borrow what we want at fair rates. We live close to the amenities and public transport services because we can afford to. We can simply pay whatever money is needed to operate any alternative such as paying for people or goods to come to you. Those with low incomes can't do any of that and nor should a civilised society ever be pushing such burdens onto that segment of its society but that is exactly what local policy is doing, it is specifically targeting the poor and inhibiting their economic mobility and running financial charges that are prejudicial.
We are a nation split by logical and fair national policy and inequitable, immoral local policy. Ergo, where you live and where you work and how much you earn has a huge potential impact on millions when it absolutely should not and they should be left well out of the switch for years to come yet.
The issue will be the lack of independent small garages to keep the shed EV going. These places are dying out as the current owners retire, they wont invest in EV specific equipment or staff, so you will be in the hands of the large franchises that charge a fortune. Then when something does go wrong it's a scrapper due to cost of parts and labour.
suffolk009 said:
DonkeyApple said:
I think that one genuinely impressive aspect of the whole brand is that they can build almost as cheaply as a Chinese brand, what is obstensively a white goods, stripped down product but with brand cache. Genuine cache rather than gold painted plastics. There are very few cases in history where a brand has managed that. Brand premium and cheap manufacturing. Arguably that is their true advantage over the incumbent, similarly premium/mid level brands.
DonkeyApple said:
Touchscreens cost 5p and China bangs them out for pretty much everything that was ever made to use them.
It's why they're used by manufacturers and why they bolt them on to the dash like a static caravan TV. They're infinitely cheaper than buttons and switches. Hence why more premium builders embed these screens so as to not look phenomenally Bulls Eye star prize but why they also use buttons, switches and dials where they're superior to the super cheap 'on screen' solution because their customers can afford to prioritise functionality, convenience and safety over the monthly cost.
If planning on helping a Tesla to live 20 years the dirt cheap, generic touchscreen would be the least of anyone's worries. The pertinent worries would be everything that the screen is attached to as historically it all starts falling off and peeling off early doors. Stick your typical consumer gibbon inside one for any period of time and the damage they can do is immense. These are cars that require keeping gibbon free if you want it to last.
One of my better investments was in early combination boilers which local authorities stuffed into their properties in the hundred of thousands in the 80s.It's why they're used by manufacturers and why they bolt them on to the dash like a static caravan TV. They're infinitely cheaper than buttons and switches. Hence why more premium builders embed these screens so as to not look phenomenally Bulls Eye star prize but why they also use buttons, switches and dials where they're superior to the super cheap 'on screen' solution because their customers can afford to prioritise functionality, convenience and safety over the monthly cost.
If planning on helping a Tesla to live 20 years the dirt cheap, generic touchscreen would be the least of anyone's worries. The pertinent worries would be everything that the screen is attached to as historically it all starts falling off and peeling off early doors. Stick your typical consumer gibbon inside one for any period of time and the damage they can do is immense. These are cars that require keeping gibbon free if you want it to last.
My recollection is that replacement PCBs cost us around £20 and the firm knocked them out at £500. No chance of cheap generic replacements.
In my recent experience that kind of mark up is still around (check out an ecu for any modern car) and I don't think car manufacturers will miss that little trick with EVs. If anything, they'll exploit it even more.
Edited by Unreal on Tuesday 23 April 13:10
I like Tesla tech - the minimalism, the way they do things differently, the way they have the best battery tech.
What prevents me from getting one is the ubiquity. The fact that there's only a small handful of colours and now only 2 real specs.
I don't like driving a car that looks the same as everyone else's. That difference can come from a colour that most people don't pick, or a spec that some people don't have.
German cars are great for this - there's varying spec levels and a plethora of choice.
But with Tesla you get what you're given and there's a high chance that the neighbour around the corner may have the same car.
If Tesla allowed more configurability and therefore built some individuality and desirability into their cars, I may be interested.
What prevents me from getting one is the ubiquity. The fact that there's only a small handful of colours and now only 2 real specs.
I don't like driving a car that looks the same as everyone else's. That difference can come from a colour that most people don't pick, or a spec that some people don't have.
German cars are great for this - there's varying spec levels and a plethora of choice.
But with Tesla you get what you're given and there's a high chance that the neighbour around the corner may have the same car.
If Tesla allowed more configurability and therefore built some individuality and desirability into their cars, I may be interested.
I don't see lack of cheap EVs for the second hand market being a problem as some people are suggesting. Based on the depreciation we've seen on stuff like the Nissan Leaf, by 2035 people should have no problem picking up a 10-15 year old Corsa EV (or equivalent) for £2-3£K. Perhaps more of a concern is the longevity of the batteries on this class of car. We know Teslas can go past 100K miles usually without issues, as there are plenty of high milers out there, but I've seen horror stories where Renault Zoes for example have needed replacement batteries on 60,000 miles and 5 figure costs have been quoted. At least your old fashioned ICE petrol car can breeze past 100K miles usually not throwing up a major bill of more than £500 at a good independent.
Gassing Station | TV, Film, Streaming & Radio | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff