24 Hours in Police Custody: Ch4
Discussion
garyhun said:
Fascinating and very sad.
I was rather surprised they were pushing for a murder prosecution from the CPS.
Is that standard practice in cases like these with the expectation of dropping to manslaughter?
Given the story presented it didn't feel like murder situation (IYSWIM). Certainly intent to harm (after we heard the other half of the story), but no intent to kill.
Edited by g3org3y on Friday 13th May 07:00
Very good episode. It started as seeming like your usual pub scuffle that went wrong but with the witness statements and CCTV it was clear it was an unprovoked attack, the description of them running away laughing only adds to the emotion of the incident.
I too was surprised they went for a murder charge, it would seem an obvious manslaughter charge, I'd have like to know more behind the reasoning for the Police looking for murder.
I too was surprised they went for a murder charge, it would seem an obvious manslaughter charge, I'd have like to know more behind the reasoning for the Police looking for murder.
Agree with the thoughts above. I said from the very start that it would be manslaughter rather than murder as from the CPS point of view I would think that it would be extremely difficult to prove beyond reasonable doubt intent to kill
Seen it happen so many times whilst working the bars - alcohol has a lot to answer for in many cases
Started off after his first interview feeling sorry for the defendant, as he seemed a reasonable guy caught up in the wrong place/wrong time scenario. However, when the story unfolded opinion swayed somewhat
Very interesting to hear the victim's brother in the 2 pieces to camera - went from an unfortunate accident, to he deserves everything he gets - I would presume stages of grief and hearing the evidence would change your view as it unfolded
2 young lives wasted. Sad to see
Seen it happen so many times whilst working the bars - alcohol has a lot to answer for in many cases
Started off after his first interview feeling sorry for the defendant, as he seemed a reasonable guy caught up in the wrong place/wrong time scenario. However, when the story unfolded opinion swayed somewhat
Very interesting to hear the victim's brother in the 2 pieces to camera - went from an unfortunate accident, to he deserves everything he gets - I would presume stages of grief and hearing the evidence would change your view as it unfolded
2 young lives wasted. Sad to see
I'm not defending his actions as it seemed pretty clear he got arsey about the guy hitting on his girlfriend and instigated the whole thing unprovoked............. however I'm sure similar actions happen up and down the high street every night of the week but don't normally end in death. So I felt some pity for the guilty party. I wouldn't have thought it would be easy to live with yourself knowing you killed someone over an extremely petty disagreement fuelled by booze.
I wonder what kind of sentence that will attract. Given what happened before hand, the apparent lack of provocation and what was said by the guilty party (about 'smashing' the guy) as they left the place there could be considered some aggravating factors to take into account. On the other hand it seemed like this guy was apparently of good character before this incident.
I guess either way two families lives are totally ruined.
I wonder what kind of sentence that will attract. Given what happened before hand, the apparent lack of provocation and what was said by the guilty party (about 'smashing' the guy) as they left the place there could be considered some aggravating factors to take into account. On the other hand it seemed like this guy was apparently of good character before this incident.
I guess either way two families lives are totally ruined.
Edited by VolvoT5 on Friday 13th May 12:08
Deerfoot said:
MTech535 said:
Awaiting sentencing.
Why does sentencing take so long? I`d have thought that there are guidelines to be followed and it would appear to be a simple enough case.....The attacker could have just walked away rather than hanging about, as shown by the CCTV. This fact, along with the reported statement that he "was going to smash him" are enough to provide the premeditation necessary for a murder charge.
Remember that the accused does not have to intend to kill to be convicted of murder. It is enough to assault someone with a reasonably foreseeable chance that they might be killed. Punching someone who falls over and cracks their head open on a kerbstone is well within these parameters.
Remember that the accused does not have to intend to kill to be convicted of murder. It is enough to assault someone with a reasonably foreseeable chance that they might be killed. Punching someone who falls over and cracks their head open on a kerbstone is well within these parameters.
AyBee said:
One thing I didn't find clear was why Tomas got evicted from the club. The whole conviction seemed to be based on the fact that Tomas was calm outside the club and therefore Cortney was the one who went after him but none of it focused on why he got evicted and not Cortney...?
Cortney's girlfriend was staff so I suppose she could have whoever she wanted thrown out with a nod to the management.rohrl said:
The attacker could have just walked away rather than hanging about, as shown by the CCTV. This fact, along with the reported statement that he "was going to smash him" are enough to provide the premeditation necessary for a murder charge.
Remember that the accused does not have to intend to kill to be convicted of murder. It is enough to assault someone with a reasonably foreseeable chance that they might be killed. Punching someone who falls over and cracks their head open on a kerbstone is well within these parameters.
I don't think anyone could reasonably foresee killing someone from a single punch. Remember that the accused does not have to intend to kill to be convicted of murder. It is enough to assault someone with a reasonably foreseeable chance that they might be killed. Punching someone who falls over and cracks their head open on a kerbstone is well within these parameters.
Janluke said:
garyhun said:
In what way did she have a lucky escape?
Turning up at the club with a group of mates where your girlfriend works behind the bar then approaching anyone who tries to chat her up comes across as insecure, jealous and a bit controlling. VolvoT5 said:
rohrl said:
The attacker could have just walked away rather than hanging about, as shown by the CCTV. This fact, along with the reported statement that he "was going to smash him" are enough to provide the premeditation necessary for a murder charge.
Remember that the accused does not have to intend to kill to be convicted of murder. It is enough to assault someone with a reasonably foreseeable chance that they might be killed. Punching someone who falls over and cracks their head open on a kerbstone is well within these parameters.
I don't think anyone could reasonably foresee killing someone from a single punch. Remember that the accused does not have to intend to kill to be convicted of murder. It is enough to assault someone with a reasonably foreseeable chance that they might be killed. Punching someone who falls over and cracks their head open on a kerbstone is well within these parameters.
For myself not being a legal person it is interesting to read the above post, thanks. I had no idea that somebody could be convicted for murder even if they didn't intend to kill, (which i'm sure he didn't.)
Any ideas on what sentence he could get for the manslaughter charge, and then how much of it would he likely serve?
Just goes to show how an average night out can go so very wrong, so quickly. 1 man dead, for another mans moment of stupidity that has changed 2 families lives forever
A couple of beers, a night out, 1 bloke chats another blokes bird up, 1st bloke gets the hump, doesn't want to lose face, thinks a quick slap or a dig will do the job and that will be that. Probably wants to be seen to "deal" with it in front of his new girlfriend and his mates. Guess he thought he'd dig the bloke, go home and wake up the next morning and everything would be normal. How wrong he was.
Just shows how fragile the head can be when suffering a major trauma.
VolvoT5 said:
I don't think anyone could reasonably foresee killing someone from a single punch.
They should be able to foresee that.Many, many people have died from a single punch. Either from the punch itself or from falling over and cracking their skull. Imagine if someone were to suspend you upside down by the ankles, arms tied by your sides, then dropped you six feet onto your unprotected head. That is what we're talking about. When you fall from a standing position in a state of unconsciousness the potential for very grave injury is high.
There is also what is called the "eggshell skull rule" which states that you take your victim as you find him. If that victim happens to have a weakness such as a skull with the strength of an eggshell and you punch him and kill him you're fully responsible for the outcome. You cannot argue in court that it was his weakness which was the cause of his injuries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggshell_skull
rohrl said:
They should be able to foresee that.
Many, many people have died from a single punch. Either from the punch itself or from falling over and cracking their skull. Imagine if someone were to suspend you upside down by the ankles, arms tied by your sides, then dropped you six feet onto your unprotected head. That is what we're talking about. When you fall from a standing position in a state of unconsciousness the potential for very grave injury is high.
There is also what is called the "eggshell skull rule" which states that you take your victim as you find him. If that victim happens to have a weakness such as a skull with the strength of an eggshell and you punch him and kill him you're fully responsible for the outcome. You cannot argue in court that it was his weakness which was the cause of his injuries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggshell_skull
100% right. A 6ft fall is all it takes and is certainly enough to give you 3 fractures on your skull and 3 bleeds on the brain. Many, many people have died from a single punch. Either from the punch itself or from falling over and cracking their skull. Imagine if someone were to suspend you upside down by the ankles, arms tied by your sides, then dropped you six feet onto your unprotected head. That is what we're talking about. When you fall from a standing position in a state of unconsciousness the potential for very grave injury is high.
There is also what is called the "eggshell skull rule" which states that you take your victim as you find him. If that victim happens to have a weakness such as a skull with the strength of an eggshell and you punch him and kill him you're fully responsible for the outcome. You cannot argue in court that it was his weakness which was the cause of his injuries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggshell_skull
What i'm amazed by, (sorry prob a bit off topic) is the way that an individuals seemingly at first similar injuries to others, can have such different outcomes both short and long term????? How an earth does that work?
Why does 1 man die from these type of injuries, whilst another survives to carry on as normal and sit on a computer typing random questions into pistonheads?
No one thinks about 'reasonably foreseeable' when you're 21 and on the piss though! Most of us here are mid-forties and grown out of our caveman hormonal stage, so maybe it's hard to remember our youth...
As someone mentioned above probably a dozen pissed up fights happen every night of the week up and down the country. It's not very often someone dies of it.
As someone mentioned above probably a dozen pissed up fights happen every night of the week up and down the country. It's not very often someone dies of it.
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