Holocaust: Night Will Fall: Ch4 9pm.

[johnxjsc1985]

An American guy saying most countries in Europe were complicit in the early days of Hitler's Germany.
He failed to mention the USA didn't do a great deal either .
the politics of that era was difficult and very complicated,

[dudleybloke]

Indeed. The Bush family were right up Hitler's ass till Pearl Harbour.

[johnxjsc1985]

dudleybloke said:

Indeed. The Bush family were right up Hitler's ass till Pearl Harbour.

selected memory from him it was common knowledge that from the mid 1930's the Jewish population suffered terribly.
Had the USA been involved from 1939 would the war have lasted as long???.

Edited by johnxjsc1985 on Tuesday 27th January 16:19

[dudleybloke]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=tPIctGbAZEQ

Conspiracy (2001) full movie.

[johnxjsc1985]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualti...
A staggering period of human suffering

[A57 HSV]

My maternal Great Grandmother was Jewish, making me a eighth Jewish. I believe that because of this being on the maternal side of my family, it would have qualified me for a place in Auschwitz. I've never researched this fact, so I might be wrong. Either way, it crosses my mind when I see anything related to the Holocaust. As does the thought that many of my not so distant relations were murdered.

I find the rise in the belief that the Holocaust either didn't exist at all or was vastly exaggerated, truly shocking. Just Google "Holocaust Denial" and you'll see what I'm referring to.

[B17NNS]

A57 HSV said:

I find the rise in the belief that the Holocaust either didn't exist at all or was vastly exaggerated, truly shocking. Just Google "Holocaust Denial" and you'll see what I'm referring to.

Holocaust deniers are up there with the '9/11 was an inside job' bunch. Take no notice.

[A57 HSV]

Indeed, but sadly it's a far more popular than the 9-11 and other conspiracy theory nonsense.

[Kinky]

My Gran was in the programme - although it was Belsen.

She was a specialist on mental issues with the red cross and was 1 of 12 docs picked by Montgomery to go with him into Belsen at liberation.

She never ever really spoke about it.

[Riley Blue]

I was at school in Germany in the mid-'60s when the Holocaust was much fresher in peoples' minds. We were taken on a day trip to Belsen, a trip shall never forget. Though most traces of what had been there were gone, huge mounds of earth remained with signs reading 'Here lie 5000 dead'. Around 50,000 died there - small in scale compared with other camps but terrible to see.

After we returned to school, a few of us were sitting around discussing the day, what we had seen and the effect it had on us. Our matron came in, sat down and joined in the conversation. After a while she rolled up her sleeve to show us a number tattooed on her arm... Half a dozen burly, six-foot rugby playing senior boys burst into tears and gave her a huge hug, she was Jewish and had been at Belsen.

I've never forgotten that day, it's making me well up just thinking of it...

[Eric Mc]

Jasandjules said:

I shan't watch this as I've seen more than I'd like already.

But I am curious to know what people found so harrowing? - I mean this insofar as some of the footage I've seen before will never leave my mind, so I wonder if there was anything worse than I have seen already. Somehow I doubt it.

My view too. I've watched and read so much about the camps that I don't think I want to watch any more. This week most of the Hollocaust material I've come across has been on the radio - which is harrowing enough.

And for those who are mystified about how human beings can treat other human being this way - there is nothing strange about this at all. It's even going on right now. Look at the antics of ISIL and Boku Haram.

All you need to be able to behave this way is to have a fundamental belief that the people you are disposing of are not real people - or aren't really worthy and deserve their fate. Indeed, the world is better off without them and what you are doing is providing a beneficial service to humanity.

Attitudes of contempt and distaste towards other sections of humanity are fundamental to the way many of people think. You can even see it demonstrated in some of the threads you see here (references to chavs, benefit scum, immigrants etc etc etc is the raw material for such behaviour).

What the Nazis did was take this inherent human attitude and turned it into official state policy - and then applied modern industrial processing techniques to solve the "problem".

Watch the TV film "Conspiracy" to get an idea of how the thought processes worked.
And watch the TV series "The Nazis - A Warning from History" (also by Laurence Rees) to see how a populations mindset was gradually moulded and melded in such a way that eventually made the death camps not only happen, but actually become inevitable.

[Janluke]

Eric Mc said:

My view too. I've watched and read so much about the camps that I don't think I want to watch any more. This week most of the Hollocaust material I've come across has been on the radio - which is harrowing enough.

And for those who are mystified about how human beings can treat other human being this way - there is nothing strange about this at all. It's even going on right now. Look at the antics of ISIL and Boku Haram.

All you need to be able to behave this way is to have a fundamental belief that the people you are disposing of are not real people - or aren't really worthy and deserve their fate. Indeed, the world is better off without them and what you are doing is providing a beneficial service to humanity.

Attitudes of contempt and distaste towards other sections of humanity are fundamental to the way many of people think. You can even see it demonstrated in some of the threads you see here (references to chavs, benefit scum, immigrants etc etc etc is the raw material for such behaviour).

What the Nazis did was take this inherent human attitude and turned it into official state policy - and then applied modern industrial processing techniques to solve the "problem".

Watch the TV film "Conspiracy" to get an idea of how the thought processes worked.
And watch the TV series "The Nazis - A Warning from History" (also by Laurence Rees) to see how a populations mindset was gradually moulded and melded in such a way that eventually made the death camps not only happen, but actually become inevitable.

I read something recently on Empathy Erosion which backs up your thoughts very well. If we can be conditioned to believe a section of society is "sub human" and they are the reason for all the ills in the world then getting rid of them is no more evil than pest control. I don't think the Germans where any more susceptible to this conditioning than any other race. By keeping the memory alive we reduce the possibility of it happening again or at least recognise the pattern.

[Eric Mc]

100% agree.

It's recognisng these dangerous traits within ourselves that is the most important lesson to be learned.

And being on our guard against those seeking power who wish to exploit such traits.

[johnxjsc1985]

B17NNS said:

Holocaust deniers are up there with the '9/11 was an inside job' bunch. Take no notice.

Exactly I wouldn't even think of making any effort to read any material like that.

[clonmult]

johnxjsc1985 said:

B17NNS said:

Holocaust deniers are up there with the '9/11 was an inside job' bunch. Take no notice.

Exactly I wouldn't even think of making any effort to read any material like that.

It is disturbing how some people can be in such chronic denial.

A few of the camp guards thoroughly debunk any denial.

But then such denial isn't rational, and such people are incapable of debate.

[S11Steve]

Riley Blue said:

I was at school in Germany in the mid-'60s when the Holocaust was much fresher in peoples' minds. We were taken on a day trip to Belsen, a trip shall never forget. Though most traces of what had been there were gone, huge mounds of earth remained with signs reading 'Here lie 5000 dead'. Around 50,000 died there - small in scale compared with other camps but terrible to see.

After we returned to school, a few of us were sitting around discussing the day, what we had seen and the effect it had on us. Our matron came in, sat down and joined in the conversation. After a while she rolled up her sleeve to show us a number tattooed on her arm... Half a dozen burly, six-foot rugby playing senior boys burst into tears and gave her a huge hug, she was Jewish and had been at Belsen.

I've never forgotten that day, it's making me well up just thinking of it...

Was that Gloucester School in Hohne? I went there for a few years in the 80's and recall hearing a similar story. What I found particularly eerie about Belsen that despite being deep in a forest, there is no sign of wildlife - no birds overhead or in trees, nor traces of rabbits which are prevalent everywhere else in the area.

[Wills2]

Max_Torque said:

Wills2 said:

Max_Torque said:

Wills2 said:

and once again I'm left asking myself how the Germans humans were capable of such acts on such a scale.

I think enough time has passed to stop the "US and THEM" kinda thing eh. The fact they were German is irrelevant (today). If we want to prevent this sort of thing happening again, we need to understand that we are ALL capable of such acts if we let our morals take second place to our political allegiances!

The programme was about the Holocaust perpetrated by the Germans, so it's very relevant. The Germans don't hide from their responsibility for it so I'm not sure why you should attempt to remove them from the story.

Under no circumstances would i wish to suggest that Germans, during WW2 were anything but fully responsible for those atrocities or to in any way remove them from the historical story.

However, sitting here with 70 years of hindsight, i think it's no longer valuable to "blame it on the Nazis" as that is too simple, too easy a statement, and can cause people to be blinkered as to their own actions. After all, i'm not a Nazi, so by default i could never commit such an atrocity. And yet, as a Human being, i am clearly quite capable of doing so under extreme circumstances (which is what the average "German" was under during the run up and course of WW2).
We need to recognise that we are ALL capable of such acts in order to ensure they NEVER happen again, independent of Race, Creed, Religion or Political stand point...

Whilst your second post is better balanced than your first response, you need to read up a little on what actually happened.

Firstly I didn't blame it solely on the Nazi party I blamed the German people as a whole, it's too easy to blame a few leading characters hence my post about the "Germans" which you seemed to take exception to.

When the allies took over (post war) the first thought was anyone who was a member of the Nazi party couldn't hold a position in the new structure, well that changed when they found out that most people of any skill was a member.

People forget that the German people voted Hitler in, anti-semitic attacks/propaganda and laws were passed everyone knew what Hitler and Nazi party stood for yet they still voted and were happy to do so.

Major political and business leaders backed them including household names that are still familiar today, I.G Faben, AEG, Krupp etc...

But no we are not all capable of such acts as proven by the fact that we haven't done them, the Holocaust stands out for a reason.

BTW I'm not anti German I love the country visit it twice a year but please lets understand what happened and not get wrapped up in "everyone is capable of this" because it's simply not true.

The Jewish people have been harassed and persecuted over the centuries and they deserve and should get our (the wests) full support/protection, thankfully they do and long may it continue.

[Riley Blue]

S11Steve said:

Riley Blue said:

I was at school in Germany in the mid-'60s when the Holocaust was much fresher in peoples' minds. We were taken on a day trip to Belsen, a trip shall never forget. Though most traces of what had been there were gone, huge mounds of earth remained with signs reading 'Here lie 5000 dead'. Around 50,000 died there - small in scale compared with other camps but terrible to see.

After we returned to school, a few of us were sitting around discussing the day, what we had seen and the effect it had on us. Our matron came in, sat down and joined in the conversation. After a while she rolled up her sleeve to show us a number tattooed on her arm... Half a dozen burly, six-foot rugby playing senior boys burst into tears and gave her a huge hug, she was Jewish and had been at Belsen.

I've never forgotten that day, it's making me well up just thinking of it...

Was that Gloucester School in Hohne? I went there for a few years in the 80's and recall hearing a similar story. What I found particularly eerie about Belsen that despite being deep in a forest, there is no sign of wildlife - no birds overhead or in trees, nor traces of rabbits which are prevalent everywhere else in the area.

Windsor Boys School, Hamm. I think quite a few of the school domestic staff had similar backgrounds. Yes, it was deathly silent on our visit too.

[9mm]

Tango13 said:

LaurasOtherHalf said:

There hasn't been a single war where "war crimes" haven't taken place. Collateral damage you might say.

(I'm not trying to dismiss it by the way, but when you consider what all these young men saw and experienced it's really not unexpected unfortunately)

It's certainly a difficult one to call. On the one side the guards should have been given a fair trial with legal representation etc so the US troops were in reality guilty of war crimes but on the other hand they bypassed a lot of legal arguements and the guards simply got what was coming to them anyway.

Summary justice.

[y2blade]

Late to the this, just watched it....yeah had read and heard about what had happened but fk me the sights and the true scale of what happened never really hit me until seeing this.....terrible truly terrible