Holocaust: Night Will Fall: Ch4 9pm.
Discussion
dave_s13 said:
I suppose it was the scale and brutal outcomes that were shown in such detail. Images of emaciated corpses being slung over the shoulder of some unhappy bod as they sling the remains unceremoniously and without dignity into a mass grave. Not something you see often on mainstream TV.
Ah ok.I've seen what I feel is far worse. I won't give examples.
dave_s13 said:
Jasandjules said:
I shan't watch this as I've seen more than I'd like already.
But I am curious to know what people found so harrowing? - I mean this insofar as some of the footage I've seen before will never leave my mind, so I wonder if there was anything worse than I have seen already. Somehow I doubt it.
I suppose it was the scale and brutal outcomes that were shown in such detail. Images of emaciated corpses being slung over the shoulder of some unhappy bod as they sling the remains unceremoniously and without dignity into a mass grave. Not something you see often on mainstream TV. But I am curious to know what people found so harrowing? - I mean this insofar as some of the footage I've seen before will never leave my mind, so I wonder if there was anything worse than I have seen already. Somehow I doubt it.
The shocking bit to me is the way the living were treated. You must have to have a heart of stone to force people into situations like that. But in a way, that was the problem, those actions became normal, the people running the camps became hardened to these things, and the pressure to comform and follow orders from higher up overcame their own personal morals.
I'd imagine the seed of the idea was just locking the Jews up or using them as forced labour, but as time went on, and their numbers increased, then killing them became the "only" option. These things evolve in steps, not at once.
Germany was bankrupt, both literally and morally after WW1, and the new facist party gave the population there hope. Hope that they could move on, and live better lives. Unfortunately, as History shows time after time, power corrupts, and with the implicit, but often forced, support of the population of Germany, the more radical sections of the Nazi party became ever more powerful, and they themselves lost their sense of reality, believing there own doctrine, beyond even the basic moral rights innate in all humans.
What we all need to take away from this horrific time in our pasts is that "normal" is not an absolute, it is all relative, and that the only thing that can prevent similar atrocities is Free Speech and Democracy.
I think Hitchcock had the right idea when he was editing....
Many Germans claimed they had 'no idea' the camps were there, however, nearly all of the camps were within one mile of populations. This was illustrated in an animated map he wanted to include in the film. As part of this, he featured shots of Germans enjoying themselves, living relaxing lives - whilst right next door to enormous death camps.
Many Germans claimed they had 'no idea' the camps were there, however, nearly all of the camps were within one mile of populations. This was illustrated in an animated map he wanted to include in the film. As part of this, he featured shots of Germans enjoying themselves, living relaxing lives - whilst right next door to enormous death camps.
Max_Torque said:
I'd imagine the seed of the idea was just locking the Jews up or using them as forced labour, but as time went on, and their numbers increased, then killing them became the "only" option. These things evolve in steps, not at once.
I am afraid the idea was to exterminate. The camps were designed to be efficient in killing thousands of people. The system was set up so the trains could run "on time", the fires would burn, the shower blocks were designed and built to give the appearance they did for compliance.As for the people running them - difficult to say but I believe many of them must have been sadists in the first place and this was just the happy (for them) job to have absolute control and kill at will. For example, you know of the lamps and items made from human skin? You know that "interesting" tattoos were marked out and gassed so that their skin could be harvested to make these things?
I've seen footage (I know I said I wouldn't say but I feel perhaps it will illustrate better) of a german just walking up behind each person who was in a line over the mass grave, and putting a bullet into each head in turn. I read somewhere that at one camp a particular officer decided his knife would be more "fun" and also save bullets..... I also read that many of them who died stood and waited patiently to die because they wanted to, it was a relief from the horror of being in the camp.
But worse than that, do you know there were inmates who had a job to find the gold teeth? They would climb over the masses of recently murdered, and extract the gold. Can you imagine this? Watch the footage, if you can.
Never forget - we should not. Yet we allow similar to happen the world over even now - atrocities.
NDA said:
I think Hitchcock had the right idea when he was editing....
Many Germans claimed they had 'no idea' the camps were there, however, nearly all of the camps were within one mile of populations. This was illustrated in an animated map he wanted to include in the film. As part of this, he featured shots of Germans enjoying themselves, living relaxing lives - whilst right next door to enormous death camps.
I once watched a programme where somebody said "They saw thousands of people going in on trains, but nobody leaving, What did they think happened to them?"Many Germans claimed they had 'no idea' the camps were there, however, nearly all of the camps were within one mile of populations. This was illustrated in an animated map he wanted to include in the film. As part of this, he featured shots of Germans enjoying themselves, living relaxing lives - whilst right next door to enormous death camps.
For anyone still not sure about watching ..... just give it a go and listen to the words right at the end, the ones where the title of this thread comes from.
The most memorable bit for me was right at the beginning where the woman spoke of seeing the empty watchtower when she realised something was happening..
Watched this tonight after the wife had gone to bed.
Awful footage. Just awful.
But, I didn't feel as affected as some who have posted. I'm not cold hearted about it I don't think, but when you've been to Auschwitz itself, nothing can compare to actually being there. The horror of the place penetrates deep inside you, I'm not a religious man but it's the closest I've ever felt to something like it, whether you believe we have a soul or not.
The saddest part was, and this might be intentional on the guides teachings, they make you understand that this can happen. I don't think I could ever describe it in words, I'm not sure I even want to try if I'm honest.
Awful footage. Just awful.
But, I didn't feel as affected as some who have posted. I'm not cold hearted about it I don't think, but when you've been to Auschwitz itself, nothing can compare to actually being there. The horror of the place penetrates deep inside you, I'm not a religious man but it's the closest I've ever felt to something like it, whether you believe we have a soul or not.
The saddest part was, and this might be intentional on the guides teachings, they make you understand that this can happen. I don't think I could ever describe it in words, I'm not sure I even want to try if I'm honest.
My family ended up in Northern Germany after fleeing Poland late in the war, apart from my Dad, who ended up in Scotland. We visited relatives in Germany every year until he died, and a few years back I started going over alone on my bike. Looking at maps I was amazed how close Belsen actually was and how some of the footage I had already seen could happen in such quiet,peaceful surroundings. My wife,son and I went to the camp last year and were moved,dumbfounded and left absolutely shaken by what is there- there were pictures,films and personal belongings on show and nothing was left to the imagination.The cinema in the building showed much of the footage shown on the TV programme.To see this then walk around the huge grounds of the camp with the mounds of earth still there, with the number of bodies under them is very, very sobering. We had a coffee in the cafe on the way out which felt absolutely surreal. The feeling of doing a normal everyday thing in such an abnormal place brought me close to tears and I really could not explain this at all.
Edited by tiffx19 on Monday 26th January 01:25
Wills2 said:
and once again I'm left asking myself how the Germans humans were capable of such acts on such a scale.
I think enough time has passed to stop the "US and THEM" kinda thing eh. The fact they were German is irrelevant (today). If we want to prevent this sort of thing happening again, we need to understand that we are ALL capable of such acts if we let our morals take second place to our political allegiances!Watched the start of this with the other half, and she lasted about 7 minutes before she was distraught and in tears.
I went to school near Belsen, and also lived near Sachsenhausen for a time, so I thought I was relatively thick skinned when it came to seeing images from the time. I was aware of the story behind the film over the years, but what I saw on Saturday knocked me for six.
Forget the fact it was Nazis/Germans/"soldiers just following orders", the huge scale of depravity against fellow humans is what we struggled to grasp.
There was a programme on afterwards about what the UK/US knew about Auschwitz in 1944 and why nothing was done about it - for the most part it was dismissed as something uncomprehensible and unimaginable, and the stories filtering through were pure fabrication. Although not quite as visually brutal as the Night Will Fall, it was quite stark and cutting in the documenting of events.
I went to school near Belsen, and also lived near Sachsenhausen for a time, so I thought I was relatively thick skinned when it came to seeing images from the time. I was aware of the story behind the film over the years, but what I saw on Saturday knocked me for six.
Forget the fact it was Nazis/Germans/"soldiers just following orders", the huge scale of depravity against fellow humans is what we struggled to grasp.
There was a programme on afterwards about what the UK/US knew about Auschwitz in 1944 and why nothing was done about it - for the most part it was dismissed as something uncomprehensible and unimaginable, and the stories filtering through were pure fabrication. Although not quite as visually brutal as the Night Will Fall, it was quite stark and cutting in the documenting of events.
Max_Torque said:
If we want to prevent this sort of thing happening again, we need to understand that we are ALL capable of such acts if we let our morals take second place to our political allegiances!
The ongoing trials of Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic suggest that ethnic cleansing is far from being a thing of the past in Europe. Max_Torque said:
Wills2 said:
and once again I'm left asking myself how the Germans humans were capable of such acts on such a scale.
I think enough time has passed to stop the "US and THEM" kinda thing eh. The fact they were German is irrelevant (today). If we want to prevent this sort of thing happening again, we need to understand that we are ALL capable of such acts if we let our morals take second place to our political allegiances!Watched it myself last night, very disturbing and utterly mindless cruelty. I see the same cruelty and inhumanity in Isis, it's happening today and yet we do almost nothing.
On a personal level (my dad is Austrian) I felt as disgusted as when I first saw the pictures of the ovens. Several family members were members of the Nazi party, although they were not 'directly' involved per se and all died in the war. I personally feel it could have happened pretty much anywhere, given the same circumstances of what happened to Germany between 1914-45 and the anti-Jewish propaganda forced on a generation.
On a personal level (my dad is Austrian) I felt as disgusted as when I first saw the pictures of the ovens. Several family members were members of the Nazi party, although they were not 'directly' involved per se and all died in the war. I personally feel it could have happened pretty much anywhere, given the same circumstances of what happened to Germany between 1914-45 and the anti-Jewish propaganda forced on a generation.
drivin_me_nuts said:
What I find I comprehensible is the planning behind the camps. How many 'management meetings'.would it have taken. I'm sure a few years ago I watched a documentary where they talked about the crematorium design and the engineering drawings and specifications. Even writing this it gets me thinking about the draughtsman who drew in ink... Did he/she know what they were drawing. And if they did, what did they think.
Some parts of the planning were more rudimentary and improvised, circa 800,000 people killed at Treblinka using nothing more sophisticated than a V8 petrol engine that had been removed from a Red Army tank.watched this last night on 4OD.
i'm not usually affected by this sort of thing, but my lounge was particularly dusty last night.
this needs to be shown in schools, so that we NEVER forget.
I've been to Celle, the town <10miles from Bergen Belsen, it's a pretty little town with gingerbread-style houses. WTF.
the book, 'the kindly ones' by jonathan Liddel is worth a read. it's fiction, but based on the events, from the point of view of an SS officer. harrowing reading.
i'm not usually affected by this sort of thing, but my lounge was particularly dusty last night.
this needs to be shown in schools, so that we NEVER forget.
I've been to Celle, the town <10miles from Bergen Belsen, it's a pretty little town with gingerbread-style houses. WTF.
the book, 'the kindly ones' by jonathan Liddel is worth a read. it's fiction, but based on the events, from the point of view of an SS officer. harrowing reading.
Siko said:
Not a popular fact, but the majority of the SS were not directly involved in the Holocaust. There was a clear difference, mostly lost due to the awfulness of the Holocaust, between the SS Einsatzgruppen/SS concentration camp guards and the 'fighting' SS, brutal soldiers as they were.
When I was at school in the 6th form we had an ex-SS officer (he was something to do with the camps, but I forget now after so long) come and give us a talk*; this would have been about 1984 or 1985. Our school was a north-Manchester private school with quite a large Jewish contingent, and understandably they refused en-masse to attend (it was voluntary, of course). In a way that was a shame, because this gentle, white haired old man had a very interesting message and tale to tell about war and mans inhumanity to others, he had spent his life since working for charities and refugee organisations (I recall he came from and worked for one in Vienna). Fascinating stuff.- we used to have some unusual stuff like this; another classic was a visit from a Home Office forensics bloke, complete with slide show. Every couple of minutes someone would run out, gagging. I think about five of us survived to the end, though I recall my legs being a bit wobbly.
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