The Great Car Con - Channel 4 now
Discussion
Max_Torque said:
Unfortunately 99% of this program is total rubbish.
The facts say:
1) Year on year, average air pollution levels across the UK have FALLEN.
2) Local pollution has, in certain circumstances exceeded the EU limits for "safe" air quality. Limits which were halved in 2012 (funny how that bit hasn't been mentioned)
3) Even with a massive increase in traffic volumes, and in particular, road based heavy haulage, local air quality is better than it has even been, particularly in cities, as old tech buses, coaches and trucks a have been phased out.
4) Diesels emit more NOx & Particulates under heavy load, than Petrol cars. Yes, but note the "Under heavy load bits" A typical passenger car is not under heavy load when sat in a traffic jam (unlike that 20ton, 15 year old bus in front of you with 2 people on it...)
5) This program is focusing on tailpipe pollutants, because they are "easy to measure the effects" but in the long term, it IS CO2 that will be mans greatest global issue.
6) Manufacturers do not "tape up gaps, or remove the rear seats" on homologation tests. No actual "hard" evidence has every been gathered, it's all just rumor and hearsay.
7) A modern EU6 diesel car with a DPF and now increasingly a SCR will be "cleaning up" after all the buses and trucks on the road!
8) Cars are not Green. Never have been, never will be. if you want to be "environmentally friendly" your choice of fuel is practically irrelevant.
9) If we really wanted to improve local air quality and reduce fuel consumption, we would force drivers to take "economy driving" courses and immediate ban all heavy goods vehicles / buses from our towns - The woman on this program was "shocked" by her car emitting 3x the claimed cycle emissions, and yet, has she be trained to drive the car??
10) Direct injection petrol engines have similar particulate emissions to diesels. Perhaps we should ban those too?
11) In the real world, the average driver of a diesel car, WILL be using less fuel than if they were driving a petrol engine of the same performance. For the first time in the history of the private automobile, the average user can now get fuel economies in the region 50mpg without trying too hard.
12) Measuring tailpipe NOx/particulate concentration in the real world is fraught with issue. Typical NOx analysers get enormously "skewed" by NO and Ammonia in the exhaust, and the results of such tests, which have an "unheated" exhaust line (not to mention the effects of particle trapping in the exhaust etc) should be taken in extreme caution
And finally to say "wow these cars are so polluting i can't believe they are allowed" and then go outside, jump into your car and go pick up the kids from school is so hypercritical is absurd.
I found this an interesting and thought provoking post - thanks for taking the time to write it!The facts say:
1) Year on year, average air pollution levels across the UK have FALLEN.
2) Local pollution has, in certain circumstances exceeded the EU limits for "safe" air quality. Limits which were halved in 2012 (funny how that bit hasn't been mentioned)
3) Even with a massive increase in traffic volumes, and in particular, road based heavy haulage, local air quality is better than it has even been, particularly in cities, as old tech buses, coaches and trucks a have been phased out.
4) Diesels emit more NOx & Particulates under heavy load, than Petrol cars. Yes, but note the "Under heavy load bits" A typical passenger car is not under heavy load when sat in a traffic jam (unlike that 20ton, 15 year old bus in front of you with 2 people on it...)
5) This program is focusing on tailpipe pollutants, because they are "easy to measure the effects" but in the long term, it IS CO2 that will be mans greatest global issue.
6) Manufacturers do not "tape up gaps, or remove the rear seats" on homologation tests. No actual "hard" evidence has every been gathered, it's all just rumor and hearsay.
7) A modern EU6 diesel car with a DPF and now increasingly a SCR will be "cleaning up" after all the buses and trucks on the road!
8) Cars are not Green. Never have been, never will be. if you want to be "environmentally friendly" your choice of fuel is practically irrelevant.
9) If we really wanted to improve local air quality and reduce fuel consumption, we would force drivers to take "economy driving" courses and immediate ban all heavy goods vehicles / buses from our towns - The woman on this program was "shocked" by her car emitting 3x the claimed cycle emissions, and yet, has she be trained to drive the car??
10) Direct injection petrol engines have similar particulate emissions to diesels. Perhaps we should ban those too?
11) In the real world, the average driver of a diesel car, WILL be using less fuel than if they were driving a petrol engine of the same performance. For the first time in the history of the private automobile, the average user can now get fuel economies in the region 50mpg without trying too hard.
12) Measuring tailpipe NOx/particulate concentration in the real world is fraught with issue. Typical NOx analysers get enormously "skewed" by NO and Ammonia in the exhaust, and the results of such tests, which have an "unheated" exhaust line (not to mention the effects of particle trapping in the exhaust etc) should be taken in extreme caution
And finally to say "wow these cars are so polluting i can't believe they are allowed" and then go outside, jump into your car and go pick up the kids from school is so hypercritical is absurd.
Randy Winkman said:
Westy Pre-Lit said:
Diesel is a dirty fuel ? we'll blow me down, never knew that one.
I struggle with the idea that many people bought diesels because they thought they were cleaner - they bought them because they used less fuel didn't they?It's all about the increased mpg and range, the only reason I have one. Our other car is electric powered. Again, it being zero emission is just a bonus. It's dead cheap to run and is quirky and cool to boot.
dave_s13 said:
Again, it being zero emission is just a bonus. It's dead cheap to run and is quirky and cool to boot.
Without wanting to be too picky, all you've done is move the emissions further up the chain. Admittedly they are there anyway, as the grid is always in use and therefore power needed, but your car will use a little bit extra. Then there's the batteries. It's *probably* less polluting than an R32 though. Maybe. 
Max_Torque said:
Unfortunately 99% of this program is total rubbish.
The facts say:
1) Year on year, average air pollution levels across the UK have FALLEN.
2) Local pollution has, in certain circumstances exceeded the EU limits for "safe" air quality. Limits which were halved in 2012 (funny how that bit hasn't been mentioned)
3) Even with a massive increase in traffic volumes, and in particular, road based heavy haulage, local air quality is better than it has even been, particularly in cities, as old tech buses, coaches and trucks a have been phased out.
4) Diesels emit more NOx & Particulates under heavy load, than Petrol cars. Yes, but note the "Under heavy load bits" A typical passenger car is not under heavy load when sat in a traffic jam (unlike that 20ton, 15 year old bus in front of you with 2 people on it...)
5) This program is focusing on tailpipe pollutants, because they are "easy to measure the effects" but in the long term, it IS CO2 that will be mans greatest global issue.
6) Manufacturers do not "tape up gaps, or remove the rear seats" on homologation tests. No actual "hard" evidence has every been gathered, it's all just rumor and hearsay.
7) A modern EU6 diesel car with a DPF and now increasingly a SCR will be "cleaning up" after all the buses and trucks on the road!
8) Cars are not Green. Never have been, never will be. if you want to be "environmentally friendly" your choice of fuel is practically irrelevant.
9) If we really wanted to improve local air quality and reduce fuel consumption, we would force drivers to take "economy driving" courses and immediate ban all heavy goods vehicles / buses from our towns - The woman on this program was "shocked" by her car emitting 3x the claimed cycle emissions, and yet, has she be trained to drive the car??
10) Direct injection petrol engines have similar particulate emissions to diesels. Perhaps we should ban those too?
11) In the real world, the average driver of a diesel car, WILL be using less fuel than if they were driving a petrol engine of the same performance. For the first time in the history of the private automobile, the average user can now get fuel economies in the region 50mpg without trying too hard.
12) Measuring tailpipe NOx/particulate concentration in the real world is fraught with issue. Typical NOx analysers get enormously "skewed" by NO and Ammonia in the exhaust, and the results of such tests, which have an "unheated" exhaust line (not to mention the effects of particle trapping in the exhaust etc) should be taken in extreme caution
And finally to say "wow these cars are so polluting i can't believe they are allowed" and then go outside, jump into your car and go pick up the kids from school is so hypercritical is absurd.
In effect, this is just the latest bandwagon for faux greenies and politicians.......
C'mon Max. Time to get the video camera out and edumacate the public, not just the Pissed'n'headers.The facts say:
1) Year on year, average air pollution levels across the UK have FALLEN.
2) Local pollution has, in certain circumstances exceeded the EU limits for "safe" air quality. Limits which were halved in 2012 (funny how that bit hasn't been mentioned)
3) Even with a massive increase in traffic volumes, and in particular, road based heavy haulage, local air quality is better than it has even been, particularly in cities, as old tech buses, coaches and trucks a have been phased out.
4) Diesels emit more NOx & Particulates under heavy load, than Petrol cars. Yes, but note the "Under heavy load bits" A typical passenger car is not under heavy load when sat in a traffic jam (unlike that 20ton, 15 year old bus in front of you with 2 people on it...)
5) This program is focusing on tailpipe pollutants, because they are "easy to measure the effects" but in the long term, it IS CO2 that will be mans greatest global issue.
6) Manufacturers do not "tape up gaps, or remove the rear seats" on homologation tests. No actual "hard" evidence has every been gathered, it's all just rumor and hearsay.
7) A modern EU6 diesel car with a DPF and now increasingly a SCR will be "cleaning up" after all the buses and trucks on the road!
8) Cars are not Green. Never have been, never will be. if you want to be "environmentally friendly" your choice of fuel is practically irrelevant.
9) If we really wanted to improve local air quality and reduce fuel consumption, we would force drivers to take "economy driving" courses and immediate ban all heavy goods vehicles / buses from our towns - The woman on this program was "shocked" by her car emitting 3x the claimed cycle emissions, and yet, has she be trained to drive the car??
10) Direct injection petrol engines have similar particulate emissions to diesels. Perhaps we should ban those too?
11) In the real world, the average driver of a diesel car, WILL be using less fuel than if they were driving a petrol engine of the same performance. For the first time in the history of the private automobile, the average user can now get fuel economies in the region 50mpg without trying too hard.
12) Measuring tailpipe NOx/particulate concentration in the real world is fraught with issue. Typical NOx analysers get enormously "skewed" by NO and Ammonia in the exhaust, and the results of such tests, which have an "unheated" exhaust line (not to mention the effects of particle trapping in the exhaust etc) should be taken in extreme caution
And finally to say "wow these cars are so polluting i can't believe they are allowed" and then go outside, jump into your car and go pick up the kids from school is so hypercritical is absurd.
In effect, this is just the latest bandwagon for faux greenies and politicians.......
You could be TV's next-gen grumpy old man to take over the crown from JC!
Tonsko said:
dave_s13 said:
Again, it being zero emission is just a bonus. It's dead cheap to run and is quirky and cool to boot.
Without wanting to be too picky, all you've done is move the emissions further up the chain. Admittedly they are there anyway, as the grid is always in use and therefore power needed, but your car will use a little bit extra. Then there's the batteries. It's *probably* less polluting than an R32 though. Maybe. 
jet_noise said:
Max_Torque said:
The facts say:
<snip>
5) This program is focusing on tailpipe pollutants, because they are "easy to measure the effects" but in the long term, it IS CO2 that will be mans greatest global issue.
Paging Mr turbobloke!<snip>
5) This program is focusing on tailpipe pollutants, because they are "easy to measure the effects" but in the long term, it IS CO2 that will be mans greatest global issue.
Drive Blind said:
the only reason anybody is driving a diesel is because it is cheaper. Improved mpg and lower VED.
"i thought i was doing my bit because i bought a diesel with an ECO badge on it" - f
k off
That bit reminded me of"i thought i was doing my bit because i bought a diesel with an ECO badge on it" - f
k offhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS37SNYjg8w
Women, know your limits
otolith said:
jet_noise said:
Max_Torque said:
The facts say:
<snip>
5) This program is focusing on tailpipe pollutants, because they are "easy to measure the effects" but in the long term, it IS CO2 that will be mans greatest global issue.
Paging Mr turbobloke!<snip>
5) This program is focusing on tailpipe pollutants, because they are "easy to measure the effects" but in the long term, it IS CO2 that will be mans greatest global issue.
Unsettling isn't it?
Tonsko said:
dave_s13 said:
Again, it being zero emission is just a bonus. It's dead cheap to run and is quirky and cool to boot.
Without wanting to be too picky, all you've done is move the emissions further up the chain. Admittedly they are there anyway, as the grid is always in use and therefore power needed, but your car will use a little bit extra. Then there's the batteries. It's *probably* less polluting than an R32 though. Maybe. otolith said:
jet_noise said:
Max_Torque said:
The facts say:
<snip>
5) This program is focusing on tailpipe pollutants, because they are "easy to measure the effects" but in the long term, it IS CO2 that will be mans greatest global issue.
Paging Mr turbobloke!<snip>
5) This program is focusing on tailpipe pollutants, because they are "easy to measure the effects" but in the long term, it IS CO2 that will be mans greatest global issue.
Max_Torque said:
9) If we really wanted to improve local air quality and reduce fuel consumption, we would force drivers to take "economy driving" courses.
And design the road system to eliminate stop start traffic & traffic jams. It really pisses me off that so much tax is taken in the name of 'green' with so little of it re-invested into solving the problems that are being taxed, anybody would think that they are just looking for reasons to take more of our money... oh wait.Of course the driver is the one that gets stung it doesn't matter that cars in the grand global scheme of things are irrelevant and that its industry and shipping that are the 2 biggest contributors to air pollution.
And as Neil Degrasse Tyson says its not the world that this pollution is destroying but our ability to live on this world.
While we still have a political, cultural and economical situation that we have at the moment, we have to put up with this bulls
t, its no surprise to me that programs such as this come out around the time of the elections, its just another case of the media brainwashing the masses to get the result that they want.Cylinder 8 said:
So a few years ago we had a group of people shouting about CO2, "Buy a diesel car! Petrol is evil!"
And now we have another group of people (or is it the same one?) shouting about nitrogen oxides, "Buy a petrol car! Diesel is evil!"
What exactly are we actually supposed to do?
Buy a G-wiz.And now we have another group of people (or is it the same one?) shouting about nitrogen oxides, "Buy a petrol car! Diesel is evil!"
What exactly are we actually supposed to do?
valiant said:
Cylinder 8 said:
So a few years ago we had a group of people shouting about CO2, "Buy a diesel car! Petrol is evil!"
And now we have another group of people (or is it the same one?) shouting about nitrogen oxides, "Buy a petrol car! Diesel is evil!"
What exactly are we actually supposed to do?
Buy a G-wiz.And now we have another group of people (or is it the same one?) shouting about nitrogen oxides, "Buy a petrol car! Diesel is evil!"
What exactly are we actually supposed to do?
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