Captain America: Civil War

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Cybertronian

1,516 posts

162 months

Thursday 26th November 2015
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Guvernator said:
Ok you've convinced me that the Civil War storyline was a good idea smile However I still think given how they've saved each others ars*s multiple times, it seems a bit contrived that they'd start having a full on throw-down over a difference in political opinion. If I had a disagreement with someone who saved my life, I might get a little upset but then I'd think you know what, he SAVED my life and he is entitled to his own point of view, not gang up on him 2v1 with another mate and start pounding on him without mercy.
I think there's a few elements at play here which lead to the eventual face-off.

Stark/Iron Man must at least in some way feel personally responsible for the actions in Sokovia, having created Ultron in the first place AND withheld that information from the rest of the Avengers, bar Banner/Hulk. There must be some fuel there for the mis-trust between Stark and Rodgers/Captain America. As such, I guess Stark's options are limited and he probably feels compelled to tow the line and go along with the "Sokovia Accords" - he may be somewhat of a sociopath, but he's not a monster and knows it was his mistake that caused this massive ripple effect. This isn't the first time the Government have tried to regulate Stark's actions, as was shown in Iron Man 2.

Conversely, Rodgers' stance as a soldier in the system must have been horribly shaken up when it was revealed that Hydra were deep within SHIELD and the US government, AND were responsible for turning his friend into the Winter Soldier. As a man that's lost his faith in the system, he'd rather side/protect Bucky as they're both relics of a by-gone era than go willingly with the Sokovia Accords. Rodgers is fiercely loyal as we've seen before, and he's simply chosen to side with his friend over Stark, who he only occasionally works with, and if Stark becomes a threat to that, well, I guess that's what leads to the big fight...



Edited by Cybertronian on Thursday 26th November 09:18

richtea78

5,574 posts

157 months

Thursday 26th November 2015
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I can't remember where it's from but there's basically a quote that says "no one has greater capacity for evil than a man convinced he is doing the right thing"

Both Cap and Stark are hugely opinionated. It's not hard to see how they could disagree on something nor how that argument could develop.

As to who would win fights, surely it's got to be Thor? He's a God, the others are all mortal?

Guvernator

13,104 posts

164 months

Thursday 26th November 2015
quotequote all
richtea78 said:
I can't remember where it's from but there's basically a quote that says "no one has greater capacity for evil than a man convinced he is doing the right thing"

Both Cap and Stark are hugely opinionated. It's not hard to see how they could disagree on something nor how that argument could develop.

As to who would win fights, surely it's got to be Thor? He's a God, the others are all mortal?
Yep I'd place Thor and Hulk on about the same level though, they fought to what was effectively a stalemate in Avengers, then I'd say IM just below them, then Cap below him as IM has taken down some tough enemies so I don't think Cap would be able to take him on his own. Don't even get me started on the assassins. Lovely as Natasha is, neither of them belong in a Superhero team IMO. They are purely there to add some drama and give it the human touch.

robemcdonald

8,716 posts

195 months

Thursday 26th November 2015
quotequote all
Guvernator said:
richtea78 said:
I can't remember where it's from but there's basically a quote that says "no one has greater capacity for evil than a man convinced he is doing the right thing"

Both Cap and Stark are hugely opinionated. It's not hard to see how they could disagree on something nor how that argument could develop.

As to who would win fights, surely it's got to be Thor? He's a God, the others are all mortal?
Yep I'd place Thor and Hulk on about the same level though, they fought to what was effectively a stalemate in Avengers, then I'd say IM just below them, then Cap below him as IM has taken down some tough enemies so I don't think Cap would be able to take him on his own. Don't even get me started on the assassins. Lovely as Natasha is, neither of them belong in a Superhero team IMO. They are purely there to add some drama and give it the human touch.
Neither Thor or Hulk are in this one, so you'll have to wait for Thor 3 to see how that pans out smile


Civpilot

6,235 posts

239 months

Thursday 26th November 2015
quotequote all
Guvernator said:
richtea78 said:
I can't remember where it's from but there's basically a quote that says "no one has greater capacity for evil than a man convinced he is doing the right thing"

Both Cap and Stark are hugely opinionated. It's not hard to see how they could disagree on something nor how that argument could develop.

As to who would win fights, surely it's got to be Thor? He's a God, the others are all mortal?
Yep I'd place Thor and Hulk on about the same level though, they fought to what was effectively a stalemate in Avengers, then I'd say IM just below them, then Cap below him as IM has taken down some tough enemies so I don't think Cap would be able to take him on his own. Don't even get me started on the assassins. Lovely as Natasha is, neither of them belong in a Superhero team IMO. They are purely there to add some drama and give it the human touch.
I think Vision actually changes the game even more. I don't think even Thor or the Hulk could beat him, afterall, Vision can 'phase' through solid matter and is pretty much made of Vibranium.

I think he will almost be side lined in this movie as if he decides to actually fight on Tony's side it's game over for team Cap. They would not have a hope.
He will probably be pretty neutral with a lean to IM to start with... but Scarlett Witch is team Cap so who knows where Vision will eventually side (they marry in the comics).

I also think that Black Panther will be on nobodies side in this. Very much an outsider fighting everyone.

ps. The rumour I heard for this movie is that it's actually Crossbones deliberately blowing stuff up and leaving clues blaming Bucky/Winter soldier to cause the 'Civil War' effectively neutralising the Avengers as they fight amongst themselves. No clue who Crossbones is working for but guessing it's a new version of Hydra?


Guvernator

13,104 posts

164 months

Thursday 26th November 2015
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Civpilot said:
I think Vision actually changes the game even more. I don't think even Thor or the Hulk could beat him, afterall, Vision can 'phase' through solid matter and is pretty much made of Vibranium.

I think he will almost be side lined in this movie as if he decides to actually fight on Tony's side it's game over for team Cap. They would not have a hope.
He will probably be pretty neutral with a lean to IM to start with... but Scarlett Witch is team Cap so who knows where Vision will eventually side (they marry in the comics).

I also think that Black Panther will be on nobodies side in this. Very much an outsider fighting everyone.

ps. The rumour I heard for this movie is that it's actually Crossbones deliberately blowing stuff up and leaving clues blaming Bucky/Winter soldier to cause the 'Civil War' effectively neutralising the Avengers as they fight amongst themselves. No clue who Crossbones is working for but guessing it's a new version of Hydra?
I didn't really like how they handled Vision in A2 tbh. I know in the comics he is supposed to be very powerful but I don't think they really managed to convey that in the film and he ended up being a bit meh IMO.

Halb

Original Poster:

53,012 posts

182 months

Thursday 26th November 2015
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I agree with listing;
Hulk
Thor (with hammer close to Hulk)
Iron-Man (can slide up or down due to power requirements, always a good plot device and one of the reasons he isn't a top fave of mine)
Cap
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
the two assassins.

Never been a fan of Vision, and so I never really knew what he could do. He did seem very meh in the film.
There is a nice chat about tech versus bone at the end of the Incredible Hulk I think? Between Generel Ross and Tony STark.

Antony Moxey

8,014 posts

218 months

Thursday 26th November 2015
quotequote all
Civpilot said:
I think Vision actually changes the game even more. I don't think even Thor or the Hulk could beat him, afterall, Vision can 'phase' through solid matter and is pretty much made of Vibranium.

I think he will almost be side lined in this movie as if he decides to actually fight on Tony's side it's game over for team Cap. They would not have a hope.
He will probably be pretty neutral with a lean to IM to start with... but Scarlett Witch is team Cap so who knows where Vision will eventually side (they marry in the comics).

I also think that Black Panther will be on nobodies side in this. Very much an outsider fighting everyone.

ps. The rumour I heard for this movie is that it's actually Crossbones deliberately blowing stuff up and leaving clues blaming Bucky/Winter soldier to cause the 'Civil War' effectively neutralising the Avengers as they fight amongst themselves. No clue who Crossbones is working for but guessing it's a new version of Hydra?
Sorry, I'm getting very lost with this. Who are Vision, Scarlett Witch, Black Panther and Crossbones? Have we seen them in the films and were they named as such?

Apologies if it's obvious and I've been dim.

Halb

Original Poster:

53,012 posts

182 months

Thursday 26th November 2015
quotequote all
Antony Moxey said:
orry, I'm getting very lost with this. Who are Vision, Scarlett Witch, Black Panther and Crossbones? Have we seen them in the films and were they named as such?

Apologies if it's obvious and I've been dim.
Vision was the big new reveal in Avengers2:Age of Ultron. The film finished with him as part of the new line-up. Scarlett Witch was also in A2AoE, she starts as a baddie and ends up also, in the new line up. In the comics she is one of the most powerful if not the most powerful, 'mutant' (a name not owned by MCU).
Film versions all seem not as strong as their comic counterparts.
Black Panther is a completely new bloke, who comic fans have recognised from the trailer. Don't know Crossbones.

Antony Moxey

8,014 posts

218 months

Thursday 26th November 2015
quotequote all
Halb said:
Vision was the big new reveal in Avengers2:Age of Ultron. The film finished with him as part of the new line-up. Scarlett Witch was also in A2AoE, she starts as a baddie and ends up also, in the new line up. In the comics she is one of the most powerful if not the most powerful, 'mutant' (a name not owned by MCU).
Film versions all seem not as strong as their comic counterparts.
Black Panther is a completely new bloke, who comic fans have recognised from the trailer. Don't know Crossbones.
Ah right, think I've got it (or probably not). Is Vision the Paul Bettany character that came from (ish) Jarvis and Scarlett Witch the one who had the brother that could run really fast? Also, the guy who CA meets at the start of Winter Soldier when they're both out running who has the mechanical wings - does he have a super hero name?

Halb

Original Poster:

53,012 posts

182 months

Thursday 26th November 2015
quotequote all
Antony Moxey said:
Ah right, think I've got it (or probably not). Is Vision the Paul Bettany character that came from (ish) Jarvis and Scarlett Witch the one who had the brother that could run really fast? Also, the guy who CA meets at the start of Winter Soldier when they're both out running who has the mechanical wings - does he have a super hero name?
Yeah, Vision is Paul Bettany, Scarlet Witch is the sister of roadrunner, and the guy with wings is called Falcon, he popped up in Ant-Man. They are all active Avengers as of the end of A2.

Antony Moxey

8,014 posts

218 months

Thursday 26th November 2015
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Excellent, thanks for the info. Not seen Antman yet - didn't realise it was tied in to the Avengers series so that's another one to check out.

robemcdonald

8,716 posts

195 months

Friday 27th November 2015
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Halb said:
Antony Moxey said:
orry, I'm getting very lost with this. Who are Vision, Scarlett Witch, Black Panther and Crossbones? Have we seen them in the films and were they named as such?

Apologies if it's obvious and I've been dim.
Vision was the big new reveal in Avengers2:Age of Ultron. The film finished with him as part of the new line-up. Scarlett Witch was also in A2AoE, she starts as a baddie and ends up also, in the new line up. In the comics she is one of the most powerful if not the most powerful, 'mutant' (a name not owned by MCU).
Film versions all seem not as strong as their comic counterparts.
Black Panther is a completely new bloke, who comic fans have recognised from the trailer. Don't know Crossbones.
Brock Rumlow (aka crossbones) was in winter solider played by Frank Grillo. He was the main SHIELD / Hydra agent. The guy that is fighting falcon as the building collapses. I think one of the final shots is him being wheeled out on a stretcher. He does play a notable role in the comic book storyline which i think may well be copied in the movie. he kills captain America bringing all the heros back together, as it later transpires Cap isn't dead at all, but Bucky wears the uniform and takes the role for a while

MiniMan64

16,862 posts

189 months

Friday 27th November 2015
quotequote all
robemcdonald said:
Halb said:
Antony Moxey said:
orry, I'm getting very lost with this. Who are Vision, Scarlett Witch, Black Panther and Crossbones? Have we seen them in the films and were they named as such?

Apologies if it's obvious and I've been dim.
Vision was the big new reveal in Avengers2:Age of Ultron. The film finished with him as part of the new line-up. Scarlett Witch was also in A2AoE, she starts as a baddie and ends up also, in the new line up. In the comics she is one of the most powerful if not the most powerful, 'mutant' (a name not owned by MCU).
Film versions all seem not as strong as their comic counterparts.
Black Panther is a completely new bloke, who comic fans have recognised from the trailer. Don't know Crossbones.
Brock Rumlow (aka crossbones) was in winter solider played by Frank Grillo. He was the main SHIELD / Hydra agent. The guy that is fighting falcon as the building collapses. I think one of the final shots is him being wheeled out on a stretcher. He does play a notable role in the comic book storyline which i think may well be copied in the movie. he kills captain America bringing all the heros back together, as it later transpires Cap isn't dead at all, but Bucky wears the uniform and takes the role for a while
That could well be where they're going with this, given the state of Chris Evans Marvel contract and the fella that plays Bucky's contract, it seems pretty likely to me.

I think it would be a good move, shake up the MCU a bit.

robemcdonald

8,716 posts

195 months

Friday 27th November 2015
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Just rewatched the trailer and saw crossbones in the background

richtea78

5,574 posts

157 months

Friday 27th November 2015
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I like the films but I'm not a comic book nerd (at least for Marvel) but how can Hulk be above Thor?

Hulks a man who becomes something else when he's angry, but its just a man at the end of the day. Thor is a God! How can you beat someone who is immortal? Cap, Hulk, Iron Man are all humans.

irocfan

40,152 posts

189 months

Friday 27th November 2015
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wjb said:
There's some lineup in 2016 for comic fans.

Feb: Deadpool
Mar: Batman v Superman
May: X-Men Apocalypse
Apr: Captain America; Civil War
Aug: Suicide Squad
Oct: Dr Strange
to be honest I'm quite excited about all bar one of these... BvS at this point is a 'meh', I;ll see it if there's nothing better on

highway

1,928 posts

259 months

Friday 27th November 2015
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The Black panther looks like a refugee from American wrestling in the trailer. That character was effectively a sub Stark brainbox in the comics with a power set like captain A without the shield or super soldier serum. I think his powers were ramped up latterly.

The comic this film is based on was writen by a guy named Mark Millar- a Scotsman who was a prolific writer for both Marvel and DC who came up with some of their best storylines in recent years. He also created Kngsman and Wanted. The wanted graphic novel is nothing like the film.

I know people say that the book is often better than the film. However I think in this case it's true. Wanted is in no way similar to the somewhat poor film of the same name. The civil war graphic is worth reading.

Moonhawk

10,730 posts

218 months

Friday 27th November 2015
quotequote all
irocfan said:
wjb said:
There's some lineup in 2016 for comic fans.

Feb: Deadpool
Mar: Batman v Superman
May: X-Men Apocalypse
Apr: Captain America; Civil War
Aug: Suicide Squad
Oct: Dr Strange
to be honest I'm quite excited about all bar one of these... BvS at this point is a 'meh', I;ll see it if there's nothing better on
I'm totally Meh! about anything DC. I hated the latest batman series - and although I found the latest superman ok - I have grave doubts about BvS.

Marvell is definitely where it is at. They have had far more hits than misses IMO with the X-men series and the Avengers arc.


Edited by Moonhawk on Friday 27th November 23:09

Civpilot

6,235 posts

239 months

Saturday 28th November 2015
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richtea78 said:
I like the films but I'm not a comic book nerd (at least for Marvel) but how can Hulk be above Thor?

Hulks a man who becomes something else when he's angry, but its just a man at the end of the day. Thor is a God! How can you beat someone who is immortal? Cap, Hulk, Iron Man are all humans.
There is one thing though... Thor can bleed so can in theory be beaten. Hulk is indestructible. Remember Banner's comment about trying to commit suicide.. "I got low. I didn't see an end, so I put a bullet in my mouth... and the other guy spit it out!". So even if you attack Banner... the 'other guy' protects him instantly (as in faster than a bullet). Hulk is always there... anger or otherwise.

Unstoppable force meets immovable object scenario right there. Thor certainly had a lot of trouble in Avengers when he tried to stop Hulk. At best he held his own.