Game of Thrones - vol II - NO SPOILERS

[4x4Tyke]

TEKNOPUG said:

I re-watched Stannis' battle last night. Bolton's army easily outnumbered them by 5/1 or greater, the vast majority of which appeared to be mounted. Nothing less than a total slaughter would ensue.

Stannis had 1300 heavy infantry (dismounted knights) vs Ramsey's 2000 Cavalry.

It is not straight forward that Cavalry automatic win over infantry; they have an advantage over green troops, skirmishers and light infantry and but little or non against disciplined heavy infantry in close formation. Discipline and experience negate the psychological intimidation of a charge.

Horses won't charge into an obstacle like block of men (hence Phalanx and Square formations), they will try to avoid a collision and stop or swerve if they cannot see a clear path through.

The real advantage of Cavalry in medieval warfare was mobility and knights typically dismounted to fight.

The men Stannis had left were battle hardened dismounted knights. I think we can safely assume only his most dedicated and professional soldiers remained and we can see he deployed them in a close order in depth. In the close up shot we clearly see them shoulder to shoulder. That is not an easy formation to break from the front even with a charge. Disciplined men know if they break and rout they are dead, but have a fighting chance if they hold.

Ramsey Bolton's cavalry do not appear to be knights, they look like they are light/medium cavalry of the Hobelar type.

He has them spread out over a wide area, a reflection of his inexperience as a field commander and something which drastically reduces their impact in a charge, for the reasons above.

Contrast the formation of Ramsey's Cavalry vs Stannis with the Stannis charge against the the Free Folk, flanking with column or the flanking charge by the Knights of the Vale in the last episode. A tight wedge driving mostly across the rear and flanks of Bolton's troops.

Yes, I'm only an armchair general but if you google medieval cavalry vs infantry you should find plenty of information concerning how the popular view of this contest is not so one sided as people expect.

Edited by 4x4Tyke on Wednesday 22 June 16:21

[JagLover]

4x4Tyke said:

Yes, I'm only an armchair general but if you google medieval cavalry vs infantry you should find plenty of information concerning how the popular view of this contest is not so one sided as people expect.

The same

With many long years playing Medieval Total War

But it is spears or pikes that are the great leveller for infantry versus cavalry. A shield wall formation might also hold but it needs to be organised and we didn't see much of that in the overhead shot.

[TEKNOPUG]

JagLover said:

4x4Tyke said:

Yes, I'm only an armchair general but if you google medieval cavalry vs infantry you should find plenty of information concerning how the popular view of this contest is not so one sided as people expect.

The same

With many long years playing Medieval Total War

But it is spears or pikes that are the great leveller for infantry versus cavalry. A shield wall formation might also hold but it needs to be organised and we didn't see much of that in the overhead shot.

This is all very good in theory, but the reality presented during the battle suggests otherwise. That was more my point; that there was a disconnect between the battle scene and Stannis ending up in the woods, alone. Oh and Brianne just waltzing in and out to finish him off.

[eps]

JagLover said:

eps said:

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaat?? Noooooooooooooooooooooooo! How can they compress it into that few episodes?

They are streamlining things massively and we are close to the end.

If every episode is a mini movie rather than filled with the filler customary for a TV show they can do it easily. 14 episodes at an average of 50 minutes each, that is 700 minutes or around LOTR length for just the end of the story.

Dunno - but each episode feels like it's getting shorter - esp. as they attempt to bring it to a season crescendo!! Especially Yara meeting Danaerys... Shall we join up?? Erm... oh go on then! It just feels like there's more here than 7 + 7 episodes to get to a satisfactory ending..

Was I the only one that was saddened by the passing of the Giant?

[SilverSixer]

eps said:

Was I the only one that was saddened by the passing of the Giant?

Not at all. It reminded me of when Gan bought the farm in Blakes 7. Sniff.

[walm]

I love that we are debating the realism of the battle scenes where one of the armies was led by a resurrected bloke, supported by a giant.

[GetCarter]

walm said:

I love that we are debating the realism of the battle scenes where one of the armies was led by a resurrected bloke, supported by a giant.

...and 90% were CGI

Edited by GetCarter on Wednesday 22 June 16:36

[p1doc]

SilverSixer said:

Not at all. It reminded me of when Gan bought the farm in Blakes 7. Sniff.

ooo that dates you and me lol best ending ever though!

[TEKNOPUG]

walm said:

I love that we are debating the realism of the battle scenes where one of the armies was led by a resurrected bloke, supported by a giant.

That was the SECOND battle of Winterfell, we're critiquing the military realism of the FIRST battle of Winterfell.

[4x4Tyke]

JagLover said:

The same

With many long years playing Medieval Total War

But it is spears or pikes that are the great leveller for infantry versus cavalry. A shield wall formation might also hold but it needs to be organised and we didn't see much of that in the overhead shot.

Yes, pretty much every TW except Warhammer.

Yes, but pike and spear are not the only way, Harolds Anglo-Saxon Housecarls famously withstood multiple charges from Norman Knights using large shields and axes through discipline and tight formations and would probably have won had he not got one in the eye.

Something else has just struck me about that Battle. Stannis had a Valyrian steel sword, the one he tried to imbue with magic using fire. Do we know what happened to it? He killed two Ramsey men with it before falling exhausted and wounded against the tree. Wondering if Brienne took it or did Ramsey get it as Battlefield loot?

[Halb]

To continue the debate, one should remember, Stannis men were tired, cold, hungry and utterly demoralised, they probably jumped on Bolton swords. Ramsay's ppl were fed, warm, itching for a fight and were utterly confident after fking up Stannis' camp.

JagLover said:

Preston has had some good videos on the show.

His stuff on the books can be a bit far fetched.

I'm currently watching more. I don't go with the sci-fi aspect, but the arguments he puts forward for a tonne of stuff, including who really are the parents of Jon Snow are compelling. Stuff he goes over also fits in with what the show is revealing.

[Halb]

4x4Tyke said:

Stannis had a Valyrian steel sword, the one he tried to imbue with magic using fire. Do we know what happened to it? He killed two Ramsey men with it before falling exhausted and wounded against the tree. Wondering if Brienne took it or did Ramsey get it as Battlefield loot?

I don't think he had a Valyrian steel sword in book or show.
Not sure if any Baratheon Valyrian blades are mentioned in the show, save for the dagger at the start.
VS weapons we know of in the show?
Longclaw
Heartsbane
Ice=Widow's Wail/Oathkeeper
any others??

[4x4Tyke]

TEKNOPUG said:

This is all very good in theory, but the reality presented during the battle suggests otherwise. That was more my point; that there was a disconnect between the battle scene and Stannis ending up in the woods, alone. Oh and Brianne just waltzing in and out to finish him off.

Preceding the Jon vs Ramsey battle, I assumed some of the naive battle tactics was just a lack of knowledge by the script writers. However, afterwards I'm thinking these were deliberate 'mistakes' to show relative experience of the characters. e.g. Ramsey long line of Cavalry in full charge and no sign of a reserve.

Something else that has also bugged me for a while, is did Stannis land North of the Wall or come through the Gate. That never seemed very clear to me. If he came through the gate, he is unlikely to have achieved the surprise he had, but landing North of the wall seems unnecessarily risky for a commander (but is important/essential for the story).

The high viewpoint does looks like a big difference in force strength, but this shows them more closed up.

Edited by 4x4Tyke on Wednesday 22 June 16:43

[FourWheelDrift]

4x4Tyke said:

Something else that has also bugged me for a while, is did Stannis land North of the Wall or come through the Gate. That never seemed very clear to me. If he came through the gate, he is unlikely to have achieved the surprise he had, but landing North of the wall seems unnecessarily risky for a commander (but is important/essential for the story).

He landed at Eastwatch-by-the-Sea (a bit like Walton-on-The-Naze) with his purchased sell-swords on ships from Braavos.

[4x4Tyke]

Halb said:

I don't think he had a Valyrian steel sword in book or show.
Not sure if any Baratheon Valyrian blades are mentioned in the show, save for the dagger at the start.
VS weapons we know of in the show?
Longclaw
Heartsbane
Ice=Widow's Wail/Oathkeeper
any others??

Apparently, "a sword of legend, forged and wielded by Azor Ahai"
and "In the taunting letter that Ramsay sends Jon, he claims ... has possession of his magic sword."


http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Lightbringer

[DamienB]

Vocal Minority said:

And also - the moment with John facing down the cavalry (a point where the score really added) - it was his perfect (if foolish) hero moment. Despite the overwhelming practical benefits of living) - the cavalry did sort of rob him of a heroically poetic end

I thought he was going to do a Brutus at Philippi for a minute. Must watch Rome again...

[glazbagun]

4x4Tyke said:

Apparently, "a sword of legend, forged and wielded by Azor Ahai"
and "In the taunting letter that Ramsay sends Jon, he claims ... has possession of his magic sword."


http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Lightbringer

It isn't mentioned that it's VS though, as far as I know the Baratheons never had any. It had a magic glow after Mel enchanted it in the ceremony on Dragonstone, but it only glows, it isn't hot like the real Lightbringer was.

[p1doc]

talking of armies dany has to have the largest by far-dothraki horde unsullied iron born and dragons=unbeatable even if all of 7 kingdoms joined up i reckon

[4x4Tyke]

glazbagun said:

4x4Tyke said:

Apparently, "a sword of legend, forged and wielded by Azor Ahai"
and "In the taunting letter that Ramsay sends Jon, he claims ... has possession of his magic sword."


http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Lightbringer

It isn't mentioned that it's VS though, as far as I know the Baratheons never had any. It had a magic glow after Mel enchanted it in the ceremony on Dragonstone, but it only glows, it isn't hot like the real Lightbringer was.

In my focus on avoiding a possible spoiler I failed to clearly concede that point. I assumed all special swords would be Valyrian. Seems this is may not the case, in the books anyway.

Still wondering what became of it. It might still be important given Melisandre now thinks Jon is the promised prince.

Perhaps that means longclaw is the real special sword and fate has already delivered it.

Edited by 4x4Tyke on Wednesday 22 June 18:46

[andyb28]

FourWheelDrift said:

He landed at Eastwatch-by-the-Sea (a bit like Walton-on-The-Naze) with his purchased sell-swords on ships from Braavos.

Thats only a few miles up the road from me.
If you need me to check for landing parties, let me know.