Have I been done by a builder?
Discussion
Just looking for a little advice...
I've been looking to get my garden fixed up, and thought now was as good a time than any, just before autumn kicks in.
I found a local(ish) builder through an ad. on Gumtree, I had him come around for a quote.
He came across as professional and seemed to know what he was talking about.
I decided I was happy with the quote and go with him.
Now is where my stupidity begins...
I believe the normal rules are:
1) Pay for materials on delivery
2) Pay labour upon completion
He asked for an initial deposit via bank transfer, which in the heat of the moment I made, (the name of recipient was his company name). We agreed a start day and left it at that. I was sent an invoice for this payment.
After a no show on the day, I got in contact, he apologised and came the following day to start.
Any misgivings I had giving the initial deposit were eased with him beginning the job.
After afew hours clearing out the garden etc, which he did very efficient, he got in contact (I wasn't at home) and said he'd need money for materials before carrying on. My initial reaction was that he had my deposit, and why couldn't use that, but I was told it wouldn't cover the cost.
After telling him I wasn't comfortable giving another lump sum, we came to an agreement I'd give half, and he'd put the rest in.
I gave this payment in cash. I expected him back later that day, if not definitely the following morning.
That was over a week ago, he's not been round since. I keep calling/texting him, but he doesn't picks up. I've had the odd text saying he'll be down later in the day, but he never shows up.
He eventually answered his phone afew days ago, said he'd had issues with one of his builders being off sick, and arranged to come and start the job the following day.
Surprise surprise, the day came and went without him turning up.
I just can't seem to figure this builders deal, he's been on Gumtree for over a year, though I'm not sure how many times he's advertised, he seems to be as professional as a builder can be, has kept upto date with providing invoices for any payments I've made (though I don't know if that's worth the paper it'd written on, he has his (apparent) company/home address along with his company logo as the header on his invoices, I'm quite sure his mobile number is his private number, he has a picture of himself with his Mrs as his whatapp profile picture, BUT he doesn't reply to any messages and doesn't answer his phone!?..
Anyone using whatapp is able to see when one of their contacts is last seen, and it looks like he uses it regularly, so there's definitely no issues with his phone...
The more I think about it, the more I'm coming to the realisation that he won't be coming back.
Any advice going ahead?
I've been looking to get my garden fixed up, and thought now was as good a time than any, just before autumn kicks in.
I found a local(ish) builder through an ad. on Gumtree, I had him come around for a quote.
He came across as professional and seemed to know what he was talking about.
I decided I was happy with the quote and go with him.
Now is where my stupidity begins...
I believe the normal rules are:
1) Pay for materials on delivery
2) Pay labour upon completion
He asked for an initial deposit via bank transfer, which in the heat of the moment I made, (the name of recipient was his company name). We agreed a start day and left it at that. I was sent an invoice for this payment.
After a no show on the day, I got in contact, he apologised and came the following day to start.
Any misgivings I had giving the initial deposit were eased with him beginning the job.
After afew hours clearing out the garden etc, which he did very efficient, he got in contact (I wasn't at home) and said he'd need money for materials before carrying on. My initial reaction was that he had my deposit, and why couldn't use that, but I was told it wouldn't cover the cost.
After telling him I wasn't comfortable giving another lump sum, we came to an agreement I'd give half, and he'd put the rest in.
I gave this payment in cash. I expected him back later that day, if not definitely the following morning.
That was over a week ago, he's not been round since. I keep calling/texting him, but he doesn't picks up. I've had the odd text saying he'll be down later in the day, but he never shows up.
He eventually answered his phone afew days ago, said he'd had issues with one of his builders being off sick, and arranged to come and start the job the following day.
Surprise surprise, the day came and went without him turning up.
I just can't seem to figure this builders deal, he's been on Gumtree for over a year, though I'm not sure how many times he's advertised, he seems to be as professional as a builder can be, has kept upto date with providing invoices for any payments I've made (though I don't know if that's worth the paper it'd written on, he has his (apparent) company/home address along with his company logo as the header on his invoices, I'm quite sure his mobile number is his private number, he has a picture of himself with his Mrs as his whatapp profile picture, BUT he doesn't reply to any messages and doesn't answer his phone!?..
Anyone using whatapp is able to see when one of their contacts is last seen, and it looks like he uses it regularly, so there's definitely no issues with his phone...
The more I think about it, the more I'm coming to the realisation that he won't be coming back.
Any advice going ahead?
I've got a lot of builders/tradesmen mates.
It's all par for the job.
They will NEVER turn a job down, even if they can't fit it in, rather they will let you wait.
The other reason with some of them is recreation: if you've given them cash up front then they'll be out on the piss with it til it's spent. They'll be back when it's gone and/or the hangover has worn off.
Other one: is it nice weather? If it is then f
k you, they're off playing golf.
I've seen this a thousand times from otherwise great and skilled tradesmen.
It's all par for the job.
They will NEVER turn a job down, even if they can't fit it in, rather they will let you wait.
The other reason with some of them is recreation: if you've given them cash up front then they'll be out on the piss with it til it's spent. They'll be back when it's gone and/or the hangover has worn off.
Other one: is it nice weather? If it is then f
k you, they're off playing golf. I've seen this a thousand times from otherwise great and skilled tradesmen.
Did he give you a quote in writing - were there terms and conditions attached to it, if so what do they say about payment?
There is no "this is the way it normally works" in this situation. My advice would always be to sign up to a contract which sets out stage payments agreeable to both parties. If in doubt use a JCT contract form or something similar which would cover such eventualities.
Any contractor who asks for money up front is one you should avoid. If he cant fund the purchase of materials in advance go to someone else.
As to what you can do about it, start documenting everything, don't phone him, email him. It gives you a record which you can later use to prove your case if you need to. Write to him setting out the situation so far, what you believe you have paid for and what you expect to happen. Give him reasonable notice/time frame to return to site and get on wth it and if he doesn't tell him that you will be employing someone else to finish the work but at that stage get some legal advice or employ a surveyor to value what has been done so you have a basis for claiming your money back.
There is no "this is the way it normally works" in this situation. My advice would always be to sign up to a contract which sets out stage payments agreeable to both parties. If in doubt use a JCT contract form or something similar which would cover such eventualities.
Any contractor who asks for money up front is one you should avoid. If he cant fund the purchase of materials in advance go to someone else.
As to what you can do about it, start documenting everything, don't phone him, email him. It gives you a record which you can later use to prove your case if you need to. Write to him setting out the situation so far, what you believe you have paid for and what you expect to happen. Give him reasonable notice/time frame to return to site and get on wth it and if he doesn't tell him that you will be employing someone else to finish the work but at that stage get some legal advice or employ a surveyor to value what has been done so you have a basis for claiming your money back.
Best to ask around neighbours to see if they have anyone reliable they can recommend and get a couple of quotes to see who you like best (bear in mind that con men are charming and easy to get on with!).
We got a good bloke who isn't in any way charming but turns up on time, does a day's work and wants money when he has finished. After a few days he even mellowed a bit and would have a chat when I got him a coffee rather than grunting. He has done a few jobs for us now and even pops in for a chat when he drives past (he knows my fence is rotting away and I will ask him to do it at some point).
We got a good bloke who isn't in any way charming but turns up on time, does a day's work and wants money when he has finished. After a few days he even mellowed a bit and would have a chat when I got him a coffee rather than grunting. He has done a few jobs for us now and even pops in for a chat when he drives past (he knows my fence is rotting away and I will ask him to do it at some point).
I agree that up front payments should be avoided, but expecting the whole job to be completed without paying a penny is also not right. I couldn't go to John Lewis and walk out with a new TV saying I'll go back and pay if I decide I'm happy with it. There's got to be a bit of give and take. I've seen plenty of small businesses go to the wall because customers couldn't or simply wouldn't pay for the work that had been done.
V8RX7 said:
You can call him from a different phone, you can threaten legal action.
If you can call in and see him at home - that works best IME.
Polite but firm.
Your number, someone else's number, 141 until he answers. If you've leaving messages tell him you're finishing work late or whatever and you'll come to his house on your way back, at half 8 or 9. Pick this time because 1) he should be back himself, and 2) he'll not want you turning up at his door, especially if his Mrs is around.If you can call in and see him at home - that works best IME.
Polite but firm.
That should get him calling you back just to avoid it. But you need to go if he doesn't.
Would trying to get the money back via my bank be a possibility? The initial deposit was via a bank transfer (lloyds to lloyds).
I'll keep trying to chase him up, I've got to a stage now where I'm asking him for my money back rather than asking when he'll be turning up.
I'll move onto popping round to the house on the invoice if I don't have any luck.
I'll keep trying to chase him up, I've got to a stage now where I'm asking him for my money back rather than asking when he'll be turning up.
I'll move onto popping round to the house on the invoice if I don't have any luck.
A respectable builder will run a respectable business and, like all respectable businesses, does not need paying for materials on delivery - they will have accounts with their suppliers that will be a minimum of 1 month payment and that will be a month after the supplier's invoice is provided which can be up to another month. Those that claim they need immediate payment to pay for materials are those that either do not have accounts because the suppliers don't trust them or are 'having a laugh'. Either way, these individuals are to be avoided.
Only ever make payments for defined levels of completion which are commensurate with the progress to completion - you then remain in control. Also always retain an amount (~5%) until six months after completion to cover any emanating problems and ensures the builder returns or you have some funds to get things rectified by an alternative tradesman.
OP, you are not in control, your builder is and he knows it so you are now at his mercy. He may complete your job but it will be to his timescale and not yours. If he doesn't you are likely to have to wait an uncomfortably long time before being able to get to this conclusion and get someone else in to do the job and also wave bye bye to the payments already made unless you are prepared to resort to the expensive balls ache that is our legal system.
Only ever make payments for defined levels of completion which are commensurate with the progress to completion - you then remain in control. Also always retain an amount (~5%) until six months after completion to cover any emanating problems and ensures the builder returns or you have some funds to get things rectified by an alternative tradesman.
OP, you are not in control, your builder is and he knows it so you are now at his mercy. He may complete your job but it will be to his timescale and not yours. If he doesn't you are likely to have to wait an uncomfortably long time before being able to get to this conclusion and get someone else in to do the job and also wave bye bye to the payments already made unless you are prepared to resort to the expensive balls ache that is our legal system.
Garvin said:
A respectable builder will run a respectable business and, like all respectable businesses, does not need paying for materials on delivery - they will have accounts with their suppliers that will be a minimum of 1 month payment and that will be a month after the supplier's invoice is provided which can be up to another month.
Equally there are as many dodgy customers as builders, would you put £10k of materials on site at risk as well as your labour without being paid ?I wouldn't.
I never thought I'd get done in the manner I have done, watching shows like cowboy builders, I'm shaking my head thinking how the customers could be so dumb, but when put into the situation, irrational behaviour takes hold, and before you know it, you're in the same position 
.
Anyone recommend a landscape gardener around the Birmingham/Solihull area? I want to get the fences put up at the very least so not to cause a nuisance to the neighbours.
. Anyone recommend a landscape gardener around the Birmingham/Solihull area? I want to get the fences put up at the very least so not to cause a nuisance to the neighbours.
It all works on trust and that means both ways. As pointed out above, the customer doesnt like/want to pay upfront but the tradesman doesnt want to risk all labour and materials to a customer either. It needs trust both ways,if either party doesnt have/give that trust then it all falls down.
I never had a problem with stage payments,a third on commencement,a third approx half way and balance on satisfaction of completion. Worked for me for 25 years.
I never had a problem with stage payments,a third on commencement,a third approx half way and balance on satisfaction of completion. Worked for me for 25 years.
V8RX7 said:
Garvin said:
A respectable builder will run a respectable business and, like all respectable businesses, does not need paying for materials on delivery - they will have accounts with their suppliers that will be a minimum of 1 month payment and that will be a month after the supplier's invoice is provided which can be up to another month.
Equally there are as many dodgy customers as builders, would you put £10k of materials on site at risk as well as your labour without being paid ?I wouldn't.
eldar said:
V8RX7 said:
Equally there are as many dodgy customers as builders, would you put £10k of materials on site at risk as well as your labour without being paid ?
I wouldn't.
Very true. Sensible stage payments are the best way.I wouldn't.
Little Lofty said:
I agree that up front payments should be avoided, but expecting the whole job to be completed without paying a penny is also not right. I couldn't go to John Lewis and walk out with a new TV saying I'll go back and pay if I decide I'm happy with it. There's got to be a bit of give and take. I've seen plenty of small businesses go to the wall because customers couldn't or simply wouldn't pay for the work that had been done.
This.Gassing Station | Homes, Gardens and DIY | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff