Dambusters film

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Discussion

AMG Merc

11,954 posts

252 months

Wednesday 18th January 2017
quotequote all
Vipers said:
For example I asked a question on another thread about T,V, and the deaf and dumb, apparently you shouldn't use the word dumb.

But! In my upbringing that was the usual term for someone who couldnt hear or speak. Times change I know, but it's bloody difficult keeping up at times if you don't move in the circle of friends who use these terms.

Offshore we called Enginers "Ginger beers", but can't use that term in certain circles.
Appartently, one should call dumb people deaf: https://www.quora.com/How-could-we-say-deaf-and-du...

Confused? I am confused

As for "Ginger Beers" - yes, at school we had another group in mind here.

Deptford Draylons

10,480 posts

242 months

Wednesday 18th January 2017
quotequote all
Very sad that the obsession on this is the dogs name and not even something else controversial such as the civilian casualties of the raid. Anything perceived as racist seems to dominate even the horrors of total war these days.

On the actual film, its one of my top five films. There is a few fictional bits added, but the core of the film is accurate and has an incredible dignity to it, the ending in particular where the remaining aircraft land and crews are just tired and not celebrating, and then scenes of those who didn't return personal artifacts and empty rooms. Also helped by the fact Richard Todd was superb both on and off screen.

Edited by Deptford Draylons on Wednesday 18th January 12:35

Smollet

10,465 posts

189 months

Wednesday 18th January 2017
quotequote all
Vipers said:
Well I didn't know it was frowned on these days, I thought calling people Black was a no no. It's probably more well known amongst groups of people who intergrate more with black people, and know these things.

I am pretty sure in my younger days coloured was acceptable, can we still use "Geordie", "Janners", "Jocks", "Kiwi's", just asking.
I doubt it as someone not connected with the above will complain on their behalf.

Vipers

32,799 posts

227 months

Wednesday 18th January 2017
quotequote all
Smollet said:
Vipers said:
Well I didn't know it was frowned on these days, I thought calling people Black was a no no. It's probably more well known amongst groups of people who intergrate more with black people, and know these things.

I am pretty sure in my younger days coloured was acceptable, can we still use "Geordie", "Janners", "Jocks", "Kiwi's", just asking.
I doubt it as someone not connected with the above will complain on their behalf.
Indeed.

unrepentant

21,212 posts

255 months

Wednesday 18th January 2017
quotequote all
Smollet said:
Vipers said:
Well I didn't know it was frowned on these days, I thought calling people Black was a no no. It's probably more well known amongst groups of people who intergrate more with black people, and know these things.

I am pretty sure in my younger days coloured was acceptable, can we still use "Geordie", "Janners", "Jocks", "Kiwi's", just asking.
I doubt it as someone not connected with the above will complain on their behalf.
Geordie and Kiwi are not derogatory, neither is Cockney or Scouser or Brit or Aussie or even Yank. They merely describe a region of origin and are generally affectionate. Where I live the people are called Hoosiers which is a slang term but they are so proud of it that they have campaigned to have it recognized as an official term by the federal government.

I had a post deleted on PH for using the word Jock so obviously some Scots find that derogatory. N****r is derogatory as is Coloured, retard etc..... as they are descriptive words meant to insult. In the US in particular the N word has connotations of slavery and segregation and is especially degrading.

I took this photo of a sign that hangs inside the Canadian Lancaster which I found quite amusing. THey flew it over from Canada in the freezing cold, must have been pretty challenging! I hadn't seen inside a Lanc since I was a kid and seeing again how claustrophobic and cramped they were I have even higher regard for my Grandfather and his comrades who flew in them in war.


Eric Mc

121,779 posts

264 months

Wednesday 18th January 2017
quotequote all
Any chance that a thread entitled "The Dambusters" will ever again cover the subject matter itself?

AMG Merc

11,954 posts

252 months

Wednesday 18th January 2017
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
Any chance that a thread entitled "The Dambusters" will ever again cover the subject matter itself?
Woof laugh

But seriously then Eric...

600 Germans and 1000 mostly Soviet labourers were killed due to the raids versus our 53 lost plus aircraft. Was the mission a success - discuss.

Vipers

32,799 posts

227 months

Wednesday 18th January 2017
quotequote all
unrepentant said:
I had a post deleted on PH for using the word Jock
I find that very odd, I have two good friends up here in Aberdeen, (both scottish of course), I have absolutely no idea about their christian names, they have always been know by the entire offshore diving industry, and indeed clients onshore, and still are referred to Jock.

Tiss an odd world. Wonder if its OK to use the word "Wet Back" in the states, again that was a common used word in the offshore industry.

Like the comment on the plane by the way, true hereos in those days.

Halb

53,012 posts

182 months

Wednesday 18th January 2017
quotequote all
Deptford Draylons said:
Very sad that the obsession on this is the dogs name and not even something else controversial such as the civilian casualties of the raid.
Interesting point, imagine a film from the POV of the German civilian workers.

-Look at that, Gerhard, that bomber was designed by a man who has a dog called, !

-Gotten un himmel! Racist bd!
<bombs drops>
-Aiiiieee, I've always loved you, Hans!

Edited by Halb on Wednesday 18th January 16:05

bad company

18,484 posts

265 months

Wednesday 18th January 2017
quotequote all
Vipers said:
unrepentant said:
I had a post deleted on PH for using the word Jock
I find that very odd, I have two good friends up here in Aberdeen, (both scottish of course), I have absolutely no idea about their christian names, they have always been know by the entire offshore diving industry, and indeed clients onshore, and still are referred to Jock.

Tiss an odd world. Wonder if its OK to use the word "Wet Back" in the states, again that was a common used word in the offshore industry.

Like the comment on the plane by the way, true hereos in those days.
Reminds of a black guy I worked with in my RAF days in the 1970's. He was always known as S***o Allen, Allen being his surname. When we tried to get the guys together for a reunion a few years I'm ashamed to say that none of knew the guys Christian name so we could not trace him. frown




williamp

19,213 posts

272 months

Wednesday 18th January 2017
quotequote all
AMG Merc said:
Eric Mc said:
Any chance that a thread entitled "The Dambusters" will ever again cover the subject matter itself?
Woof laugh

But seriously then Eric...

600 Germans and 1000 mostly Soviet labourers were killed due to the raids versus our 53 lost plus aircraft. Was the mission a success - discuss.
Yes. I gave a huge morale boost to the allied forces and home front. the war was changing in 1943, but this felt like a real change: us using cunning aand guile to beat a foe many thought (still feel, wrongly in my opinion) were technically superior. If we can succcessfully attack them, in the heavily defended german heartland, what else are we capable of??

And did we stop the Germand developing heavy water, used in atmoic weapons research?? Possibly. Did it divert manpower to defend them? yes

Vipers

32,799 posts

227 months

Wednesday 18th January 2017
quotequote all
bad company said:
Vipers said:
unrepentant said:
I had a post deleted on PH for using the word Jock
I find that very odd, I have two good friends up here in Aberdeen, (both scottish of course), I have absolutely no idea about their christian names, they have always been know by the entire offshore diving industry, and indeed clients onshore, and still are referred to Jock.

Tiss an odd world. Wonder if its OK to use the word "Wet Back" in the states, again that was a common used word in the offshore industry.

Like the comment on the plane by the way, true hereos in those days.
Reminds of a black guy I worked with in my RAF days in the 1970's. He was always known as S***o Allen, Allen being his surname. When we tried to get the guys together for a reunion a few years I'm ashamed to say that none of knew the guys Christian name so we could not trace him. frown
I have known many servicemen but never knew their christian name. One in particular was called Eric In the mob. His surname was Sykes.

Met him years later, so I said "Hellow Eric", he said "My names actually Duncan", of course he was called Eric as the same era we knew each other a well know actor on telly was Eric Sykes.

Anyone with surname of Allen was always called Darby Allen, god knows why.

Here are some, but Allen isn't there, don't know why.

http://www.gashbag.com/navalnicknames.htm


motco

15,919 posts

245 months

Wednesday 18th January 2017
quotequote all
Vipers said:
I have known many servicemen but never knew their christian name. One in particular was called Eric In the mob. His surname was Sykes.

Met him years later, so I said "Hellow Eric", he said "My names actually Duncan", of course he was called Eric as the same era we knew each other a well know actor on telly was Eric Sykes.

Anyone with surname of Allen was always called Darby Allen, god knows why.

Here are some, but Allen isn't there, don't know why.

http://www.gashbag.com/navalnicknames.htm
In Hoover's engineering department at Perivale in the 1960s there was a labourer whose surname was Dover. He can't really have been called Ben, can he? rolleyes

Vipers

32,799 posts

227 months

Wednesday 18th January 2017
quotequote all
motco said:
Vipers said:
I have known many servicemen but never knew their christian name. One in particular was called Eric In the mob. His surname was Sykes.

Met him years later, so I said "Hellow Eric", he said "My names actually Duncan", of course he was called Eric as the same era we knew each other a well know actor on telly was Eric Sykes.

Anyone with surname of Allen was always called Darby Allen, god knows why.

Here are some, but Allen isn't there, don't know why.

http://www.gashbag.com/navalnicknames.htm
In Hoover's engineering department at Perivale in the 1960s there was a labourer whose surname was Dover. He can't really have been called Ben, can he? rolleyes
At my sons school there was a Gordon Bennet, apparently his mum was divorced and met a Mr Bennet, poor sod.

Tango13

8,398 posts

175 months

Wednesday 18th January 2017
quotequote all
williamp said:
AMG Merc said:
Eric Mc said:
Any chance that a thread entitled "The Dambusters" will ever again cover the subject matter itself?
Woof laugh

But seriously then Eric...

600 Germans and 1000 mostly Soviet labourers were killed due to the raids versus our 53 lost plus aircraft. Was the mission a success - discuss.
Yes. I gave a huge morale boost to the allied forces and home front. the war was changing in 1943, but this felt like a real change: us using cunning aand guile to beat a foe many thought (still feel, wrongly in my opinion) were technically superior. If we can succcessfully attack them, in the heavily defended german heartland, what else are we capable of??

And did we stop the Germand developing heavy water, used in atmoic weapons research?? Possibly. Did it divert manpower to defend them? yes
The Germans managed to repair the dams within six months iirc but to do so they had to divert vast amounts of manpower from the fortifications on the Atlantic coast, they also pulled back something like 1,000 guns from the Eastern front to defend against any further attacks.

I'd say that neither were decisive to the battles but certainly helped in the same way the Tirpitz tied up Allied resources for a couple of years.

Of course we can't have a discussion about the dams raid with mentioning 'Highball' and the rocket propelled 'Kurt'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1JBYIClEd0

Europa1

10,923 posts

187 months

Wednesday 18th January 2017
quotequote all
Tango13 said:
williamp said:
AMG Merc said:
Eric Mc said:
Any chance that a thread entitled "The Dambusters" will ever again cover the subject matter itself?
Woof laugh

But seriously then Eric...

600 Germans and 1000 mostly Soviet labourers were killed due to the raids versus our 53 lost plus aircraft. Was the mission a success - discuss.
Yes. I gave a huge morale boost to the allied forces and home front. the war was changing in 1943, but this felt like a real change: us using cunning aand guile to beat a foe many thought (still feel, wrongly in my opinion) were technically superior. If we can succcessfully attack them, in the heavily defended german heartland, what else are we capable of??

And did we stop the Germand developing heavy water, used in atmoic weapons research?? Possibly. Did it divert manpower to defend them? yes
The Germans managed to repair the dams within six months iirc but to do so they had to divert vast amounts of manpower from the fortifications on the Atlantic coast, they also pulled back something like 1,000 guns from the Eastern front to defend against any further attacks.

I'd say that neither were decisive to the battles but certainly helped in the same way the Tirpitz tied up Allied resources for a couple of years.

Of course we can't have a discussion about the dams raid with mentioning 'Highball' and the rocket propelled 'Kurt'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1JBYIClEd0
Certainly agree with the morale boost point, but my understanding of the "success" is that aside from the short term disruption to German industry, it was as stated above what we'd probably now call the opportunity cost of the Germans having to divert massive resources in both manpower and materials, not just from the Atlantic Coast but the 'Atlantic Wall' generally, and in particular the stretch of it along the Channel coast, in the run-up to D-Day. Whether that benefit of the raid was in the minds of RAF High Command when the raid was planned I do not know.

jmorgan

36,010 posts

283 months

Wednesday 18th January 2017
quotequote all
The Germans had very finite resources, any drain on those resources was a boon. No pun intended.

Vocal Minority

8,582 posts

151 months

Thursday 19th January 2017
quotequote all
AMG Merc said:
Agree with your points. They're not being derogatory, rather identifying.

Fyi - The movie was run a few days ago on TV and all mentions of said dog's name were left in - as intended by the writers. Getting back to the movie, it was superb to watch, as always, even being 61 years old! smile
Hooray! It only took 5 and a bit pages for the people getting so cross about the word's (supposed) omission to acknowledge this fact after it had been made repeatedly to them!

Halmyre

11,148 posts

138 months

Thursday 19th January 2017
quotequote all
Vipers said:
motco said:
Vipers said:
I have known many servicemen but never knew their christian name. One in particular was called Eric In the mob. His surname was Sykes.

Met him years later, so I said "Hellow Eric", he said "My names actually Duncan", of course he was called Eric as the same era we knew each other a well know actor on telly was Eric Sykes.

Anyone with surname of Allen was always called Darby Allen, god knows why.

Here are some, but Allen isn't there, don't know why.

http://www.gashbag.com/navalnicknames.htm
In Hoover's engineering department at Perivale in the 1960s there was a labourer whose surname was Dover. He can't really have been called Ben, can he? rolleyes
At my sons school there was a Gordon Bennet, apparently his mum was divorced and met a Mr Bennet, poor sod.
There was a real Gordon Bennet, back in Edwardian(?) times, he gave his name to a series of motor races. Apparently he was a bit of a scandalous character, hence the phrase used when something extraordinary happens.

motco

15,919 posts

245 months

Thursday 19th January 2017
quotequote all
Halmyre said:
Vipers said:
motco said:
Vipers said:
I have known many servicemen but never knew their christian name. One in particular was called Eric In the mob. His surname was Sykes.

Met him years later, so I said "Hellow Eric", he said "My names actually Duncan", of course he was called Eric as the same era we knew each other a well know actor on telly was Eric Sykes.

Anyone with surname of Allen was always called Darby Allen, god knows why.

Here are some, but Allen isn't there, don't know why.

http://www.gashbag.com/navalnicknames.htm
In Hoover's engineering department at Perivale in the 1960s there was a labourer whose surname was Dover. He can't really have been called Ben, can he? rolleyes
At my sons school there was a Gordon Bennet, apparently his mum was divorced and met a Mr Bennet, poor sod.
There was a real Gordon Bennet, back in Edwardian(?) times, he gave his name to a series of motor races. Apparently he was a bit of a scandalous character, hence the phrase used when something extraordinary happens.
More on Gordon Bennet