Dambusters film
Discussion
Eric Mc said:
See what I mean.
As long as people think that the only thing that matters about the whole 617 Squadron operation to disrupt industrial production in the Rhur Valley is the name of the squadron leader's dog - there is no chance this film will ever be remade.
Nobody is saying that the dogs name is the only thing that matters but it is a significant part of the story.As long as people think that the only thing that matters about the whole 617 Squadron operation to disrupt industrial production in the Rhur Valley is the name of the squadron leader's dog - there is no chance this film will ever be remade.
In those days you could buy n....r brown paint, it was just a colour.
On any thread about the Dambuster's Raid, just count to number of comments about the dog and related issues compared to comments about any other aspect of the mission.
It's totally out of proportion and prevents any discussion about the really ingenious technology used and the true bravery of those who took part.
Other aspects worth discussing are how truthful the film (and original Paul Brickhill book) actually are.
And discussions about what other more modern books on the subject have revealed that couldn't be revealed at the time of the original book and film never get mentioned.
It's all fascinating stuff but the threads always get sidetracked over canine nomenclature nonsense.
It's totally out of proportion and prevents any discussion about the really ingenious technology used and the true bravery of those who took part.
Other aspects worth discussing are how truthful the film (and original Paul Brickhill book) actually are.
And discussions about what other more modern books on the subject have revealed that couldn't be revealed at the time of the original book and film never get mentioned.
It's all fascinating stuff but the threads always get sidetracked over canine nomenclature nonsense.
I was born in 1946 so brought up after the war. Looking back, the odd thing is the limited amount of discussion the returnees indulged in. It wasn't until the 60s that uncles said what they did.
I used to ask my father direct questions and he'd answer, but would never start a conversation about the war.
One uncle of mine was subject of a part of a film and two of the incidents he was involved in were used. The script writer had approached him, he'd answered the questions and then told no one. And was related to me!
Lads like me used to devour war books and the Brickhill ones were required reading. Above Us the Waves, The Cruel Sea and similar books were discussed at school.
The Dambusters Raid was a classic story, equivalent to Scott. It had everything. Stiff-upper-lip and more. There was ingenuity, clever scientist, brave men, tragedy and humour. Re the last, Shannon got a letter from the museum of his home town in Australia - he was one of a number or Australians in the squadron - asking if he could send them a memento of the raid. He wrote back saying that he supported such museums and finished by saying: 'Please find enclosed the Möhne Dam'. Underneath in red pen he wrote: Letter opened by censor and contents confiscated by the Metropolitan Water Board.' How cool was that?
They were volunteers, heroes. No wonder the story inspired me and so many others.
Whether the raids were a success or not is a difficult question to answer. Lots of deaths of allies and crew. However, I remember reading that it meant that Wallis was taken more seriously by the War Office and Tallboy and Earthquake might not have happened had it not been for the raids. Further, the precision bombing of 617 was a significant factor in the war.
Terrible times. You'd think the history of it would put us off wars. No such luck.
I used to ask my father direct questions and he'd answer, but would never start a conversation about the war.
One uncle of mine was subject of a part of a film and two of the incidents he was involved in were used. The script writer had approached him, he'd answered the questions and then told no one. And was related to me!
Lads like me used to devour war books and the Brickhill ones were required reading. Above Us the Waves, The Cruel Sea and similar books were discussed at school.
The Dambusters Raid was a classic story, equivalent to Scott. It had everything. Stiff-upper-lip and more. There was ingenuity, clever scientist, brave men, tragedy and humour. Re the last, Shannon got a letter from the museum of his home town in Australia - he was one of a number or Australians in the squadron - asking if he could send them a memento of the raid. He wrote back saying that he supported such museums and finished by saying: 'Please find enclosed the Möhne Dam'. Underneath in red pen he wrote: Letter opened by censor and contents confiscated by the Metropolitan Water Board.' How cool was that?
They were volunteers, heroes. No wonder the story inspired me and so many others.
Whether the raids were a success or not is a difficult question to answer. Lots of deaths of allies and crew. However, I remember reading that it meant that Wallis was taken more seriously by the War Office and Tallboy and Earthquake might not have happened had it not been for the raids. Further, the precision bombing of 617 was a significant factor in the war.
Terrible times. You'd think the history of it would put us off wars. No such luck.
Derek Smith said:
I was born in 1946.
Same here. Growing up in what now is South London, used to just love saturdays, a visit to the Army and Navy stores, or what ever they were called, all old ex military stuff, map boards, compasses, even bought a fuller phone once, plus military ear phones. Fond memories. Eric Mc said:
All good stuff.
Now we should discuss where the film got it wrong (deliberately in some cases) and what they weren't allowed to show.
The weapon was still classified when they made the film, I guess we all know that. Now we should discuss where the film got it wrong (deliberately in some cases) and what they weren't allowed to show.
However the Brickhill book was my first introduction as a teenager and later reads have set me straight and one very recent have set the record very straight. Especially the history of the squadron as it went through the war.
It is very humbling though when you read what these lads were doing, same age, I was being a prat down the pub and worrying over night school tests etc.
Dr Jekyll said:
Ironic since the effects are the only thing really wrong with the original. Perhaps it could be remastered with a correctly shaped bomb and better dam explosions CGId in.
Talking of irony, the bomb shape is CGI (crayon-generated imagery)! I don't know if they painted over the original negative, or a later copy. The test drops are wrong as well - film of 'Highball' tests, and a conventional Lancaster over the practice dam, although 617 might have practised with standard Lancasters at some point.One thing I did notice was a bomb-aimer using the make-do bomb sight with both eyes open - either that or he was very good at sorting out his double vision!
For me, by far the best bit of the film is when Barnes Wallis goes into the war ministry, to see if he can "borrow" a Wellington bomber to carry out his tests, and the jobsworth says:- "Don't you know there's a war on, what possible reason can I give, to ask them to release a precious Wellington bomber which are in short supply"?
And Michael Redgrave (Wallis) dryly says:-
"Perhaps if you told them I designed it........do you think that might help?"
The very next scene shows a Wellington carrying out tests.....(Filmed at Chesil beach)....
(Not seen the film for twenty odd years, but that's the gist of the conversation)
Not mentioned the blasted dog once.
And Michael Redgrave (Wallis) dryly says:-
"Perhaps if you told them I designed it........do you think that might help?"
The very next scene shows a Wellington carrying out tests.....(Filmed at Chesil beach)....
(Not seen the film for twenty odd years, but that's the gist of the conversation)
Not mentioned the blasted dog once.
Halmyre said:
One thing I did notice was a bomb-aimer using the make-do bomb sight with both eyes open - either that or he was very good at sorting out his double vision!
Not sure is this is relevant but I use an inclinometer and compass with a one eye spy hole (oh er missis) and I find it works well when you keep both eyes open. I can keep the object I want to measure in vision and at the same time read off the elevation or bearing, my left eye has the building and my right has the information sort of superimposed on the object. Would that work on that sight?Eric Mc said:
All good stuff.
Now we should discuss where the film got it wrong (deliberately in some cases) and what they weren't allowed to show.
I always thought Richard Todd's portrayal of Guy Gibson was a bit bland. A good performance but perhaps not as complex as the real person.Now we should discuss where the film got it wrong (deliberately in some cases) and what they weren't allowed to show.
Eric Mc said:
On any thread about the Dambuster's Raid, just count to number of comments about the dog and related issues compared to comments about any other aspect of the mission.
It's totally out of proportion and prevents any discussion about the really ingenious technology used and the true bravery of those who took part.
Other aspects worth discussing are how truthful the film (and original Paul Brickhill book) actually are.
And discussions about what other more modern books on the subject have revealed that couldn't be revealed at the time of the original book and film never get mentioned.
It's all fascinating stuff but the threads always get sidetracked over canine nomenclature nonsense.
If only we had a dedicated history sub forum eh? We could have proper grown up discussions on historical matters without the idiots sidetracking things.It's totally out of proportion and prevents any discussion about the really ingenious technology used and the true bravery of those who took part.
Other aspects worth discussing are how truthful the film (and original Paul Brickhill book) actually are.
And discussions about what other more modern books on the subject have revealed that couldn't be revealed at the time of the original book and film never get mentioned.
It's all fascinating stuff but the threads always get sidetracked over canine nomenclature nonsense.
PH towers doubt there would be enough traffic for it and others reckon there are too many sub forums as it is but there you go...
jmorgan said:
Halmyre said:
One thing I did notice was a bomb-aimer using the make-do bomb sight with both eyes open - either that or he was very good at sorting out his double vision!
Not sure is this is relevant but I use an inclinometer and compass with a one eye spy hole (oh er missis) and I find it works well when you keep both eyes open. I can keep the object I want to measure in vision and at the same time read off the elevation or bearing, my left eye has the building and my right has the information sort of superimposed on the object. Would that work on that sight?Tango13 said:
If only we had a dedicated history sub forum eh? We could have proper grown up discussions on historical matters without the idiots sidetracking things.
I fear PH would provide that response (I recently requested a Brooklands Events page - seemed logical but no, not enough traffic. Have they never heard of "built it and they will come".).As to ring-fencing a historical forum from "idiot side-tracking". Nice idea but not a chance, they'll get in regardless - like water through a Frogeye Sprite's roof
AMG Merc said:
Tango13 said:
If only we had a dedicated history sub forum eh? We could have proper grown up discussions on historical matters without the idiots sidetracking things.
I fear PH would provide that response (I recently requested a Brooklands Events page - seemed logical but no, not enough traffic. Have they never heard of "built it and they will come".).As to ring-fencing a historical forum from "idiot side-tracking". Nice idea but not a chance, they'll get in regardless - like water through a Frogeye Sprite's roof
(mildly surprised/horrified to see it's one of the most popular sub-forums)
I was at school in Hamm, Germany in the mid-'60s, not far from the Mohne Dam. On a visit there we walked across the dam whistling the Dambusters theme and found, propped up against one of the trees on the far side of the dam, the end from one of the bombs. From memory it was about 2 1/2 - 3 feet in diameter and I thought it had a toothed ring on it but I'm now not so sure. It was, I think, cast iron. There was an information board stuck in the ground but I can't remember any detail after all this time. It was gone when I returned in 1995 - still whistling the same tune. On the '60s visit the rebuilt section in the centre of the dam was clear to see.
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