Dambusters film
Discussion
Eric Mc said:
Yes - too late for Bader though.
Well.....depends on your viewpoint, considering a number of the pre-eminent historians on the BoB and after, have concluded that Bader was shot down by one of his fellow Spitfire pilots, 'Buck' Casson who was flying a cannon armed Spit that day...... 
Vocal Minority said:
Hardly. The only people on here worrying are the ones getting offended about something (the omission of a dogs name) that didn't happen anyway - it took them ten pages to cotton on.
And there are other metrics to mean a nation is thriving other than the design and manufacture of 'war winning weapons' - or are we just extending this total f
king nonsense about the younger generation not being able to rise to the task? Every older generation in history thinks the youngsters aren't up to (insert thing here). It was bks then and it's bks now.
And I say all these things as a military historian (by university education not profession, granted)
Someone makes an interesting point about a slightly 2 dimensional portrayal.
But at the end of the day it's giving people what they want. The 1950s didn't want or need a 'horrors of war' piece - they'd had rather enough of that during the war. They wanted some eagles comics style derring do. Dambusters provided this as did Bader. People weren't interested in the complexities of the people - that's understandable - what was needed especially as posh war austerity dragged on for nearly a decade was a big of good old fashioned Brotish heroism and to mix escapism with a sense it was all worth it and they just needed to tough the austerity out.
These days, you may get a big more traction with the idea that like all people, Gibson and Bader were a mixture of light and dark peraonalities wise. I understand that Bader was, what one may describe as, a bit of an ahole. But he achieved an awful lot against adversity and was a good symbol of all the positive aspect of determination and fortitude in the face of difficulty and Gerry! That's what the fifties needed.
Quite, good post.And there are other metrics to mean a nation is thriving other than the design and manufacture of 'war winning weapons' - or are we just extending this total f
king nonsense about the younger generation not being able to rise to the task? Every older generation in history thinks the youngsters aren't up to (insert thing here). It was bks then and it's bks now.And I say all these things as a military historian (by university education not profession, granted)
Someone makes an interesting point about a slightly 2 dimensional portrayal.
But at the end of the day it's giving people what they want. The 1950s didn't want or need a 'horrors of war' piece - they'd had rather enough of that during the war. They wanted some eagles comics style derring do. Dambusters provided this as did Bader. People weren't interested in the complexities of the people - that's understandable - what was needed especially as posh war austerity dragged on for nearly a decade was a big of good old fashioned Brotish heroism and to mix escapism with a sense it was all worth it and they just needed to tough the austerity out.
These days, you may get a big more traction with the idea that like all people, Gibson and Bader were a mixture of light and dark peraonalities wise. I understand that Bader was, what one may describe as, a bit of an a
hole. But he achieved an awful lot against adversity and was a good symbol of all the positive aspect of determination and fortitude in the face of difficulty and Gerry! That's what the fifties needed. aeropilot said:
Eric Mc said:
Yes - too late for Bader though.
Well.....depends on your viewpoint, considering a number of the pre-eminent historians on the BoB and after, have concluded that Bader was shot down by one of his fellow Spitfire pilots, 'Buck' Casson who was flying a cannon armed Spit that day...... Just how likely is it that an experienced pilot would mistake a Spitfire for a Bf 109 ?
Ayahuasca said:
Unless there is definitive proof of that, it is a fairly awful thing to allege.
Just how likely is it that an experienced pilot would mistake a Spitfire for a Bf 109 ?
Believe me, that kind of thing happened a lot.Just how likely is it that an experienced pilot would mistake a Spitfire for a Bf 109 ?
EG: The first RAF fighter pilot to die in WW2 was in a Hurricane shot down by a Spitfire.
There was also a case of a BOAC B24 mistaken for a Fw200(!) and shot down.
I can imagine in the chaos of it all an inexperienced pilot (and by half way through the BoB there were a fk of a lot of those!) getting punchy and just giving it a burst of machine gun across a dark shape that happened across his sights momentarily and getting lucky (or unlucky as it may be).
Dog fights on busy days were a total fking melee
k of a lot of those!) getting punchy and just giving it a burst of machine gun across a dark shape that happened across his sights momentarily and getting lucky (or unlucky as it may be). Dog fights on busy days were a total f
king melee Evangelion said:
AMG Merc said:
You're killing me guys - Douglas Bader was a git. Childhood respect trashed. Gutted.
Guy Gibson was a bit of a st too by all accounts. He was always rude and condescending towards junior ranks, particularly ground crew who nicknamed him the "Bumptious bd".I guess you have to be a particular kind of character to do what Gibson and Bader did. Shrinking violets would probably not have cut the mustard.
Evangelion said:
Guy Gibson was a bit of a st too by all accounts. He was always rude and condescending towards junior ranks, particularly ground crew who nicknamed him the "Bumptious bd".
I heard from someone who was in the RAF during the war that Gibson was disliked but respected, Bader just disliked.t too by all accounts. He was always rude and condescending towards junior ranks, particularly ground crew who nicknamed him the "Bumptious bd".Ayahuasca said:
aeropilot said:
Eric Mc said:
Yes - too late for Bader though.
Well.....depends on your viewpoint, considering a number of the pre-eminent historians on the BoB and after, have concluded that Bader was shot down by one of his fellow Spitfire pilots, 'Buck' Casson who was flying a cannon armed Spit that day...... IIRC, there was even a TV documentary on these findings some years ago.
Ironically, Casson (who was shot down by legendary JG26 pilot, Gerhard Schopfel moments after downing his Boss) wrote to Bader immediately after the war, after both had been repatriated from POW camps, perfectly describing his glee at shooting the tail of a Me109, without realising he was describing the very downing of the person he was writing to!!!
Dr Jekyll said:
Ayahuasca said:
Unless there is definitive proof of that, it is a fairly awful thing to allege.
Just how likely is it that an experienced pilot would mistake a Spitfire for a Bf 109 ?
Believe me, that kind of thing happened a lot.Just how likely is it that an experienced pilot would mistake a Spitfire for a Bf 109 ?
EG: The first RAF fighter pilot to die in WW2 was in a Hurricane shot down by a Spitfire.
There was also a case of a BOAC B24 mistaken for a Fw200(!) and shot down.
Early on more so (read about the Battle of Barking Creek) but it was always an issue during a melee of air combat.
unrepentant said:
Evangelion said:
AMG Merc said:
You're killing me guys - Douglas Bader was a git. Childhood respect trashed. Gutted.
Guy Gibson was a bit of a st too by all accounts. He was always rude and condescending towards junior ranks, particularly ground crew who nicknamed him the "Bumptious bd".I guess you have to be a particular kind of character to do what Gibson and Bader did. Shrinking violets would probably not have cut the mustard.
unrepentant said:
Evangelion said:
AMG Merc said:
You're killing me guys - Douglas Bader was a git. Childhood respect trashed. Gutted.
Guy Gibson was a bit of a st too by all accounts. He was always rude and condescending towards junior ranks, particularly ground crew who nicknamed him the "Bumptious bd".I guess you have to be a particular kind of character to do what Gibson and Bader did. Shrinking violets would probably not have cut the mustard.
mybrainhurts said:
unrepentant said:
Evangelion said:
AMG Merc said:
You're killing me guys - Douglas Bader was a git. Childhood respect trashed. Gutted.
Guy Gibson was a bit of a st too by all accounts. He was always rude and condescending towards junior ranks, particularly ground crew who nicknamed him the "Bumptious bd".I guess you have to be a particular kind of character to do what Gibson and Bader did. Shrinking violets would probably not have cut the mustard.
The Telegraph said:
Alex Ross, who has died aged 86, was Douglas Bader's medical orderly during their time at the German prisoner-of-war camp Oflag IVC, better known as Colditz Castle.
A bandsman in the Seaforth Highlanders who had been captured in France in 1940, Ross became Bader's orderly in 1942 at Stalag VIIIb (Lamsdorf), and volunteered to accompany him to Colditz.
In the autumn of 1943 Ross was approached by Hauptmann Pupcke, one of the German staff, and handed a letter from the Red Cross telling him that, as a non-combatant, he was being repatriated. Delighted at the prospect, Ross went up to Bader, who was in the yard at the time, and said, "I'm going home!"
"No, you're bloody not," Bader retorted. "You came here as my skivvy and that's what you'll stay."
Ross remained at Colditz for a further 18 months until it was liberated.
When the camp was finally liberated by American troops on April 16 1945, Bader succeeded in hitching a lift with an American woman journalist and got back to England the next day. The remainder of the PoWs packed their belongings in boxes and were flown back to Britain two days later; their baggage never arrived. After debriefing, Ross went to visit his family at Tain, on the Dornoch Firth, north of Inverness, and while there he was summoned to the Post Office to take a long-distance call from Douglas Bader.
The Battle of Britain hero wanted his spare pair of legs, and Ross had to explain that the Americans had not allowed them to bring anything back with them - in any case, Ross later insisted, there were no spare legs. Bader swore at Ross and put down the telephone on him. It was the last occasion on which Ross heard from Bader.
A bandsman in the Seaforth Highlanders who had been captured in France in 1940, Ross became Bader's orderly in 1942 at Stalag VIIIb (Lamsdorf), and volunteered to accompany him to Colditz.
In the autumn of 1943 Ross was approached by Hauptmann Pupcke, one of the German staff, and handed a letter from the Red Cross telling him that, as a non-combatant, he was being repatriated. Delighted at the prospect, Ross went up to Bader, who was in the yard at the time, and said, "I'm going home!"
"No, you're bloody not," Bader retorted. "You came here as my skivvy and that's what you'll stay."
Ross remained at Colditz for a further 18 months until it was liberated.
When the camp was finally liberated by American troops on April 16 1945, Bader succeeded in hitching a lift with an American woman journalist and got back to England the next day. The remainder of the PoWs packed their belongings in boxes and were flown back to Britain two days later; their baggage never arrived. After debriefing, Ross went to visit his family at Tain, on the Dornoch Firth, north of Inverness, and while there he was summoned to the Post Office to take a long-distance call from Douglas Bader.
The Battle of Britain hero wanted his spare pair of legs, and Ross had to explain that the Americans had not allowed them to bring anything back with them - in any case, Ross later insisted, there were no spare legs. Bader swore at Ross and put down the telephone on him. It was the last occasion on which Ross heard from Bader.
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