Mr Bates vs The Post Office

[Vasco]

FiF said:

tumble dryer said:

b0rk said:

FiF said:

Back on topic, being reported that POL has employed a team of ex police detectives, headed by Gary Brooks, former head of major crime unit at Lancashire, to investigate the role of the 'untouchables' the fraud squad investigators who are accused of bullying and intimidating sub postmasters.

Currently interviewing victims who claim they were wrongly treated.

Edited to add, a recording of an interview previously claimed as lost has been unearthed by the police team.

Edited by FiF on Sunday 25th February 16:22

This feels like POL are trying to get ahead of bad news story to be going down this route so late in the day, or maybe to try and shift blame to few sacrificial lambs. Other than POL shaming a few employees for being sts not sure how this helps, or how it doesn’t run the risk of preventing the actual police and CPS from bringing prosecutions if criminal acts had been committed. Fair trial rather than trial by media and all that…

Yeah, I'm with that thinking too...

When I first read FiF's post I was conflicted.

I liked the sound of what was being touted, but there was that uneasiness as to the bona fides of, well, let's be honest, the slipperiest, most dishonest, arsesaving-ist, self-preserving, myopic, self-serving bunch of now stting themselves, dishonest and lying, bullying s (that our successive governments have patted on the back) ever.

On balance I tend to think more negatively about this than positively. Clearly the devil is in the detail and a lot depends on the remit. But look at the track record, this is a different slant on the setting up of an independent auditor, then when Second Sight's investigation came up with the wrong answers from POL viewpoint they were shutdown and access to information removed.

The only positive thing that I could positively squeeze out of it could be that there are some who have genuinely been shocked, feel they have been misled by the central villains, and want to see how much more is sitting waiting to come out of the woodwork. Question is who would be sufficiently senior to set this investigation up but still genuinely have been kept in the dark.

Which question leads me to suspect it's another exercise to try and get ahead of things and focus blame on a few to be claimed as 'bad apples' when in reality it's the apple core that stinks more than anything.

In short it's a villain keeping to their modus operandi. Previously all was blamed on the small guys, the SPMs, now it's the investigators' turn.

Experience has shown, more than once, that nothing the Post Office now do should be trusted - rotten to the core.

[Hammersia]

FiF said:

On balance I tend to think more negatively about this than positively. Clearly the devil is in the detail and a lot depends on the remit. But look at the track record, this is a different slant on the setting up of an independent auditor, then when Second Sight's investigation came up with the wrong answers from POL viewpoint they were shutdown and access to information removed.

The only positive thing that I could positively squeeze out of it could be that there are some who have genuinely been shocked, feel they have been misled by the central villains, and want to see how much more is sitting waiting to come out of the woodwork. Question is who would be sufficiently senior to set this investigation up but still genuinely have been kept in the dark.

Which question leads me to suspect it's another exercise to try and get ahead of things and focus blame on a few to be claimed as 'bad apples' when in reality it's the apple core that stinks more than anything.

In short it's a villain keeping to their modus operandi. Previously all was blamed on the small guys, the SPMs, now it's the investigators' turn.

It's all very Death of Stalin yes.

Guessing a few people we've never heard of will be shoved forwards to take responsibility, doubt it will be Elaine as she might suddenly recover her memory and start blabbing.

[Bonefish Blues]

I see Henry has been doubling-down with MPs in Committee this afternoon!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/business-68405566

[The_Nugget]

Bonefish Blues said:

I see Henry has been doubling-down with MPs in Committee this afternoon to!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/business-68405566

Watched most of the evidence to the select committee today.
The chair got a nice little question in there at the end to the CEO - Have you ever considered resigning?
Not sure if it was primed given what came afterwards with Henry….

Seems like the focus of the investigation is into the CEO, even though the Gov and POL have been using that to discredit Henry. The whole thing is a calamity - and a distraction to the wider issue.

The MPs now seemingly so interested in swift justice, where were they for the last 5 years?
Who thinks that POL should be anywhere near sorting out the compensation and redress scheme - utter lunacy.

The only way forward IMO, take the redress out of the hands of POL. Swiftly get it paid.
Get a new Chair, get a new CEO.
No way the CEO survives this - only being kept there so the new person can come in clean when everything is concluded with redress.

[The_Nugget]

I’ve watched a lot (probably too much) of the Horizon inquiry testimony,
Can’t wait for the next phase and Paula Vennels et al and to see if Gareth Jenkins eventually makes an appearance.

When Paula’s on, they should make it an event - bank holiday - big screens up in the parks and free fruit and veg to throw at them. She’s going to get absolutely pasted.

[Unreal]

The_Nugget said:

Bonefish Blues said:

I see Henry has been doubling-down with MPs in Committee this afternoon to!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/business-68405566

Watched most of the evidence to the select committee today.
The chair got a nice little question in there at the end to the CEO - Have you ever considered resigning?
Not sure if it was primed given what came afterwards with Henry….

Seems like the focus of the investigation is into the CEO, even though the Gov and POL have been using that to discredit Henry. The whole thing is a calamity - and a distraction to the wider issue.

The MPs now seemingly so interested in swift justice, where were they for the last 5 years?
Who thinks that POL should be anywhere near sorting out the compensation and redress scheme - utter lunacy.

The only way forward IMO, take the redress out of the hands of POL. Swiftly get it paid.
Get a new Chair, get a new CEO.
No way the CEO survives this - only being kept there so the new person can come in clean when everything is concluded with redress.

None of this is a surprise. All big organisations close ranks and then lie and obfuscate to cover their tracks, supported by management primarily motivated by self interest. Look at what happens to whistleblowers in the NHS. Watch the documentaries on the Challenger and Columbia disasters. POL has just given people more of a peep behind the curtain but anyone who has worked for a large organisation will recognise most of the behaviours. Not one POL employee will be prosecuted as a result of this.

[The_Nugget]

Unreal said:

None of this is a surprise. All big organisations close ranks and then lie and obfuscate to cover their tracks, supported by management primarily motivated by self interest. Look at what happens to whistleblowers in the NHS. Watch the documentaries on the Challenger and Columbia disasters. POL has just given people more of a peep behind the curtain but anyone who has worked for a large organisation will recognise most of the behaviours. Not one POL employee will be prosecuted as a result of this.

I’m not sure about that. I think there will be some charges at least. Perjury is a possibility for some. Not sure what else.
The sad thing about it is though, that the current CEO started in 2019, after the prosecutions had ceased with actually a good opportunity to set it right at least from the POL point of view and could have even become a force for good with the SPMs to sort it out with the Government. Has proved incapable of that and seemingly now joined the ranks of those tarnished by the scandal.

An organisation doesn’t make these decisions - it is people and in this case those people have made a Horlicks of cleaning it up as well as the horror show of what went before.
The Government are equally to blame. Dragged their heels for years until it became popularised and now are just full of hand wringers.

[Fastpedeller]

The_Nugget said:

Unreal said:

None of this is a surprise. All big organisations close ranks and then lie and obfuscate to cover their tracks, supported by management primarily motivated by self interest. Look at what happens to whistleblowers in the NHS. Watch the documentaries on the Challenger and Columbia disasters. POL has just given people more of a peep behind the curtain but anyone who has worked for a large organisation will recognise most of the behaviours. Not one POL employee will be prosecuted as a result of this.

I’m not sure about that. I think there will be some charges at least. Perjury is a possibility for some. Not sure what else.
The sad thing about it is though, that the current CEO started in 2019, after the prosecutions had ceased with actually a good opportunity to set it right at least from the POL point of view and could have even become a force for good with the SPMs to sort it out with the Government. Has proved incapable of that and seemingly now joined the ranks of those tarnished by the scandal.

An organisation doesn’t make these decisions - it is people and in this case those people have made a Horlicks of cleaning it up as well as the horror show of what went before.
The Government are equally to blame. Dragged their heels for years until it became popularised and now are just full of hand wringers.

I tend to agree that no PO employee will be prosecuted - the sad reality is we'll get the usual ........ "lessons have been learnt" "it won't help to put them in jail - what about their families". Nobody in power has a backbone.
What will happen if nobody is prosecuted? If this was France there would be uproar amongst the populace, but we'll all just sit back and go "oh well"
People such as Alan Bates are very few - the man deserves a medal! (he declined the 'official' one (good man) but gratefully accepted the Pride of Britain !

[Unreal]

The_Nugget said:

Unreal said:

None of this is a surprise. All big organisations close ranks and then lie and obfuscate to cover their tracks, supported by management primarily motivated by self interest. Look at what happens to whistleblowers in the NHS. Watch the documentaries on the Challenger and Columbia disasters. POL has just given people more of a peep behind the curtain but anyone who has worked for a large organisation will recognise most of the behaviours. Not one POL employee will be prosecuted as a result of this.

I’m not sure about that. I think there will be some charges at least. Perjury is a possibility for some. Not sure what else.
The sad thing about it is though, that the current CEO started in 2019, after the prosecutions had ceased with actually a good opportunity to set it right at least from the POL point of view and could have even become a force for good with the SPMs to sort it out with the Government. Has proved incapable of that and seemingly now joined the ranks of those tarnished by the scandal.

An organisation doesn’t make these decisions - it is people and in this case those people have made a Horlicks of cleaning it up as well as the horror show of what went before.
The Government are equally to blame. Dragged their heels for years until it became popularised and now are just full of hand wringers.

Yes it's people but more specifically a culture and all organisations and sub groups have one. A culture of management self interest and closing ranks under threat is commonplace ime.

[heebeegeetee]

The_Nugget said:

I’ve watched a lot (probably too much) of the Horizon inquiry testimony,
Can’t wait for the next phase and Paula Vennels et al and to see if Gareth Jenkins eventually makes an appearance.

When Paula’s on, they should make it an event - bank holiday - big screens up in the parks and free fruit and veg to throw at them. She’s going to get absolutely pasted.

I agree, it should be a national day off. I will
want to be in front of a TV screen for this one.

[robinessex]

The old saying, that most people get promoted to their "level of incompetence" Seems to be alive and well in the P.O.

[Eric Mc]

robinessex said:

The old saying, that most people get promoted to their "level of incompetence" Seems to be alive and well in the P.O.

Based on some of the evidence given to the enquiry by the Post Office Inspectors, I would say most of those had been promoted BEYOND their level of competence.

[Wills2]

Clearly putting in new a CEO and Chairman isn't enough as they get assimilated into the wider organisation and become what they are supposedly brought in to stop, they need to replace the whole board and senior management but how do you do that, as I've said a few times those of us that have dealt with PO management know this isn't about a figure head or two, it's rotten to the core all the way through hundreds of them.

As the first order of the day they need to quash the verdicts and sign the cheques and remove the PO from the process entirely, quite why they have anything to do with it is beyond me.

[Bonefish Blues]

Eric Mc said:

robinessex said:

The old saying, that most people get promoted to their "level of incompetence" Seems to be alive and well in the P.O.

Based on some of the evidence given to the enquiry by the Post Office Inspectors, I would say most of those had been promoted BEYOND their level of competence.

Isn't that the same thing?

[KAgantua]

Bonefish Blues said:

Eric Mc said:

robinessex said:

The old saying, that most people get promoted to their "level of incompetence" Seems to be alive and well in the P.O.

Based on some of the evidence given to the enquiry by the Post Office Inspectors, I would say most of those had been promoted BEYOND their level of competence.

Isn't that the same thing?

[hidetheelephants]

Bonefish Blues said:

Eric Mc said:

robinessex said:

The old saying, that most people get promoted to their "level of incompetence" Seems to be alive and well in the P.O.

Based on some of the evidence given to the enquiry by the Post Office Inspectors, I would say most of those had been promoted BEYOND their level of competence.

Isn't that the same thing?

This is commonly referred to as the Peter Principle, from the not terribly funny but best selling book of the same name.

[robinessex]

hidetheelephants said:

Bonefish Blues said:

Eric Mc said:

robinessex said:

The old saying, that most people get promoted to their "level of incompetence" Seems to be alive and well in the P.O.

Based on some of the evidence given to the enquiry by the Post Office Inspectors, I would say most of those had been promoted BEYOND their level of competence.

Isn't that the same thing?

This is commonly referred to as the Peter Principle, from the not terribly funny but best selling book of the same name.

I've just realized, that's probably true of the entire occupants of the House of Parliament.

[FiF]

Counsel representing Lee Castleton and Seema Misra in closing statement to inquiry has directly accused Post Office Ltd and Fujitsu of conspiracy to pervert the course of justice.


link

[Randy Winkman]

Unreal said:

Yes it's people but more specifically a culture and all organisations and sub groups have one. A culture of management self interest and closing ranks under threat is commonplace ime.

The recent TV series on the Columbia space shuttle showed plenty of that.

[Maxdecel]

the latest in a war of words between Mr Staunton and government officials. - https://news.sky.com/story/post-office-should-be-h...