Mr Bates vs The Post Office
Discussion
CoolHands said:
British justice system - tell me about how tv prosecutions take place. Or council tax prosecutions by local authorities that somehow have their own court that isn’t really a court and in fact they rent the court room to process cases
British Justice system? Read this book and weep!The Secret Barrister: Stories of the Law and How It's Broken
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Secret-Barrister-Stories-...
heebeegeetee said:
kestral said:
Millions and millions of pounds of tax payers money being wasted.
Nothing will happen to any of these people in the Post Office or Fujitsu. There, that's the abridge version.
Some things have already been change: Reputations have been trashed. ..............Nothing will happen to any of these people in the Post Office or Fujitsu. There, that's the abridge version.
And, the reputation of British justice has been trashed. I shall never want to hear again how British justice is somehow something to be held up as a good example ........
vaud said:
Interesting from yesterday:
https://www.postofficescandal.uk/post/former-post-...
"Chris Aujard answered questions at the Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry yesterday. The day before, he resigned as General Counsel for five separate companies, and the day before that, he chucked it in at another."
Might be coincidence of course https://www.postofficescandal.uk/post/former-post-...
"Chris Aujard answered questions at the Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry yesterday. The day before, he resigned as General Counsel for five separate companies, and the day before that, he chucked it in at another."
Years ago someone used an idiom "British justice is fine ....if you can afford it" as a youth I just passed it off as GOM Talk, time has made me realise just how true it is and this case/scandal puts a Top Hat on it.
It's the very weapon this load of scum used against good honest people, the fact it's tax payers money that funded their corrupt exploits just rubs salt in the wound.
skwdenyer said:
The “corporate speak” wasn’t, I don’t think, all an attempt to deflect or obfuscate; I think she’s an exemplar of a hopeless culture in which delivering “a change programme” is far more important than taking control and ownership and delivering actual change. For instance, when quizzed about supporting SPMs, she kept going on about the initiatives she’d implemented. When asked about specific help for SPMs, she seemed genuinely puzzled why nobody rated her for ensuring the provision of greater 2nd line support staff.
After enough years in an organisation like this, that is the life, the reality, and only those who embrace it get preferment.
When talking about the helpline scripts, she was clear that even though she was what you or I would imagine would be the responsible person, in reality her responsibility was for process and providing a system for others to feed in. There was not a single person who had holistic knowledge and proper control over both the operation of the helpdesk and its content.
As I’ve retold before, I was once interviewing for Project Managers and encountered a chap who was very particular - and proud - to tell me he wasn’t a PM; he was a PRINCE 2 practitioner. For him - and others - it wasn’t about delivering a project, it was about properly delivering a process. He didn’t get my vote!
That’s where accountability and control go to die. Everyone gets to say “I did my part properly” but nobody takes - or has - control and accountability for the whole.
It is a disease. And those who flourish within such a structure must by definition have little or no care for people or wider outcomes; their careers are defined only by their ability to operate the processes they inherited within a structure that makes no sense but is remarkably resistant to change.
Sorting it doesn’t require disbanding the PO. But it does mean hiring passionate responsible and accountable people who can cut through and recast the organisation as one that does things well and has morals, rather than one that is simply an agglomeration of functionaries intent on keeping their noses clean.
That's such an eloquent summary of how organisation can rot. And how certain malign traits help people prosper within them, and perpetuate the rot. After enough years in an organisation like this, that is the life, the reality, and only those who embrace it get preferment.
When talking about the helpline scripts, she was clear that even though she was what you or I would imagine would be the responsible person, in reality her responsibility was for process and providing a system for others to feed in. There was not a single person who had holistic knowledge and proper control over both the operation of the helpdesk and its content.
As I’ve retold before, I was once interviewing for Project Managers and encountered a chap who was very particular - and proud - to tell me he wasn’t a PM; he was a PRINCE 2 practitioner. For him - and others - it wasn’t about delivering a project, it was about properly delivering a process. He didn’t get my vote!
That’s where accountability and control go to die. Everyone gets to say “I did my part properly” but nobody takes - or has - control and accountability for the whole.
It is a disease. And those who flourish within such a structure must by definition have little or no care for people or wider outcomes; their careers are defined only by their ability to operate the processes they inherited within a structure that makes no sense but is remarkably resistant to change.
Sorting it doesn’t require disbanding the PO. But it does mean hiring passionate responsible and accountable people who can cut through and recast the organisation as one that does things well and has morals, rather than one that is simply an agglomeration of functionaries intent on keeping their noses clean.
Doubly impressed that you appear to have written it at 3 am !
Blib said:
What found interesting was that of all the emails, very few were written by her.
I mentioned this to Mrs B, who has recently retired from the City after 30+ years working as an employment lawyer.
She smiled and said that the 'clever ones' are careful not to leave too much of a trail.
Ah yes, I've always wanted everything in writing from a superior for a dodgy decision. Many are reluctant to record these..I mentioned this to Mrs B, who has recently retired from the City after 30+ years working as an employment lawyer.
She smiled and said that the 'clever ones' are careful not to leave too much of a trail.
Blib said:
Can he recommend legal action against the PO or individuals?
Can he write that he didn't believe suchandsuch as a witness?
There are a couple of phrases you often see in written judgements which I've always assumed to be judge speak for "I think witness X was lying through their teeth". These are "X was an unreliable witness" and "I was not persuaded by X's evidence". I suspect that type of phrase may feature heavily in this report although it would be great if he was more blunt. We'll just have to wait and see. Can he write that he didn't believe suchandsuch as a witness?
tele_lover said:
Can the two *****es be privately prosecuted but for criminal (not civil) charges, like the PO did to the SPOs?
Yes, below taken from the CPS The right to bring private prosecutions is preserved by section 6(1) of the Prosecution of Offences Act (POA) 1985. There are, however, some limitations:
the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) has power under section 6(2) POA 1985 to take over private prosecutions;
in some cases, the private prosecutor must seek the consent of the Attorney General or of the DPP before the commencement of proceedings.
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/private-pros...
If they do bring them forward, then the CPS will be made to look absurd if they don't take them over as it will show once and for all there is no justice in the country unless you can afford to pay for it, although perhaps they would only take them over to bury them.
Wills2 said:
tele_lover said:
Can the two *****es be privately prosecuted but for criminal (not civil) charges, like the PO did to the SPOs?
Yes, below taken from the CPS The right to bring private prosecutions is preserved by section 6(1) of the Prosecution of Offences Act (POA) 1985. There are, however, some limitations:
the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) has power under section 6(2) POA 1985 to take over private prosecutions;
in some cases, the private prosecutor must seek the consent of the Attorney General or of the DPP before the commencement of proceedings.
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/private-pros...
If they do bring them forward, then the CPS will be made to look absurd if they don't take them over as it will show once and for all there is no justice in the country unless you can afford to pay for it, although perhaps they would only take them over to bury them.
Blib said:
e600 said:
Was it the Guinness scandal where the alleged guilty party escaped justice due to a terminal disease diagnosis………from which he was the only person ever to later recover.
If I remember correctly, it was 'dementia'.Though, I may not remember correctly.
Bonefish Blues said:
Blib said:
e600 said:
Was it the Guinness scandal where the alleged guilty party escaped justice due to a terminal disease diagnosis………from which he was the only person ever to later recover.
If I remember correctly, it was 'dementia'.Though, I may not remember correctly.
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