Mr Bates vs The Post Office
Discussion
Bonefish Blues said:
Seasonal Hero said:
Bonefish Blues said:
You mean make Execs personally liable for loss in the way that Subpostmasters were/are. You may be on to something there.
Controversial I know!It's high time that this was extended to incompetent civil servants like this Vennells woman.
I try hard to ensure that I think “what would I do in these circumstances?”
To blindly trust a new computer program to state that fraud had taken place, and Post Office folk needed to go to jail, and push your case so hard that people take their own lives beggar’s belief. This would be terrible on its own.
But then to know that your computer system has these faults and continue with the prosecutions is another level. The Post Office had its own prosecution team and the law seemed rigged in their favour.
I followed the case in Private Eye for ages, and couldn’t believe it. It's one of the few stories they ran with that made me genuinely angry.
The fact the odious Vennels hasn’t been stripped of her CBE is a genuine stain on the honours system, when in reality she and others should be doing time.
To blindly trust a new computer program to state that fraud had taken place, and Post Office folk needed to go to jail, and push your case so hard that people take their own lives beggar’s belief. This would be terrible on its own.
But then to know that your computer system has these faults and continue with the prosecutions is another level. The Post Office had its own prosecution team and the law seemed rigged in their favour.
I followed the case in Private Eye for ages, and couldn’t believe it. It's one of the few stories they ran with that made me genuinely angry.
The fact the odious Vennels hasn’t been stripped of her CBE is a genuine stain on the honours system, when in reality she and others should be doing time.
Lotusgone said:
Bonefish Blues said:
Seasonal Hero said:
Bonefish Blues said:
You mean make Execs personally liable for loss in the way that Subpostmasters were/are. You may be on to something there.
Controversial I know!It's high time that this was extended to incompetent civil servants like this Vennells woman.
I've been following this story for a few years and as with others on this thread, anger is the main emotion. I don't know if I can watch the ITV series for this reason.
Anger at the post office's lawyers who failed to investigate or failed to disclose evidence of bugs in the Horizon system that created liabilities out of thin air.
Anger at Post Office and Fujitsu employees for doing everything they can to keep their jobs rather than coming clean about what they knew at trial.
Anger at the post office for avoiding paying anything like reasonable compensation for lives they have ruined.
Anger at the post office senior management who canned a contract with a forensic accounting company (Second Sight) that had uncovered evidence of bugs in the Horizon system.
Anger at the post office for using every legal trick in the book to protect themselves including trying to run the postmaster's legal fund out of money, trying to get the judge recused and forcing the postmaster's barristers to resign.
Anger at post office lawyers, managers and execs who have had memory failure at the current public inquiry. Some truly monumental jobsworths, idiot and liars have been uncovered here and so far none of them have seemingly faced and legal consequences.
Anger at the post office's lawyers who failed to investigate or failed to disclose evidence of bugs in the Horizon system that created liabilities out of thin air.
Anger at Post Office and Fujitsu employees for doing everything they can to keep their jobs rather than coming clean about what they knew at trial.
Anger at the post office for avoiding paying anything like reasonable compensation for lives they have ruined.
Anger at the post office senior management who canned a contract with a forensic accounting company (Second Sight) that had uncovered evidence of bugs in the Horizon system.
Anger at the post office for using every legal trick in the book to protect themselves including trying to run the postmaster's legal fund out of money, trying to get the judge recused and forcing the postmaster's barristers to resign.
Anger at post office lawyers, managers and execs who have had memory failure at the current public inquiry. Some truly monumental jobsworths, idiot and liars have been uncovered here and so far none of them have seemingly faced and legal consequences.
It's great that this has finally come out to a wider public audience albeit through the medium of a dramatisation of the original events.
Given the huge scale and egregious injustices of the scandal (and the fact that it is dragging on so long in the legal system), it has received relatively 'subdued' mainstream news coverage. Almost as if influential people wanted it played-down...
Given the huge scale and egregious injustices of the scandal (and the fact that it is dragging on so long in the legal system), it has received relatively 'subdued' mainstream news coverage. Almost as if influential people wanted it played-down...
LeoSayer said:
I've been following this story for a few years and as with others on this thread, anger is the main emotion. I don't know if I can watch the ITV series for this reason.
Anger at the post office's lawyers who failed to investigate or failed to disclose evidence of bugs in the Horizon system that created liabilities out of thin air.
Anger at Post Office and Fujitsu employees for doing everything they can to keep their jobs rather than coming clean about what they knew at trial.
Anger at the post office for avoiding paying anything like reasonable compensation for lives they have ruined.
Anger at the post office senior management who canned a contract with a forensic accounting company (Second Sight) that had uncovered evidence of bugs in the Horizon system.
Anger at the post office for using every legal trick in the book to protect themselves including trying to run the postmaster's legal fund out of money, trying to get the judge recused and forcing the postmaster's barristers to resign.
Anger at post office lawyers, managers and execs who have had memory failure at the current public inquiry. Some truly monumental jobsworths, idiot and liars have been uncovered here and so far none of them have seemingly faced and legal consequences.
With you there all the way LS.Anger at the post office's lawyers who failed to investigate or failed to disclose evidence of bugs in the Horizon system that created liabilities out of thin air.
Anger at Post Office and Fujitsu employees for doing everything they can to keep their jobs rather than coming clean about what they knew at trial.
Anger at the post office for avoiding paying anything like reasonable compensation for lives they have ruined.
Anger at the post office senior management who canned a contract with a forensic accounting company (Second Sight) that had uncovered evidence of bugs in the Horizon system.
Anger at the post office for using every legal trick in the book to protect themselves including trying to run the postmaster's legal fund out of money, trying to get the judge recused and forcing the postmaster's barristers to resign.
Anger at post office lawyers, managers and execs who have had memory failure at the current public inquiry. Some truly monumental jobsworths, idiot and liars have been uncovered here and so far none of them have seemingly faced and legal consequences.
I cant explain why this issue pi55es me off so much, but it does and has done for a number of years.
I watched it last night and it has made me feel more anger at the PO than anything else i can think of.
Muzzer79 said:
I was watching with the OH last night and commented how the victims of this must have a huge compensation claim at least ongoing.
But I've done some more research and learned that the Post Office paid out £57m in damages in 2019 (of which £46m was for legal fees) to 555 claimants and have basically said they don't have the money for any more. The Government have therefore had to step in to assist further claims.
Outrageous.
The SPMs 'didn't have the money', either. But I've done some more research and learned that the Post Office paid out £57m in damages in 2019 (of which £46m was for legal fees) to 555 claimants and have basically said they don't have the money for any more. The Government have therefore had to step in to assist further claims.
Outrageous.
Some put in their life savings, some borrowed from friends & family, some borrowed commercially, some sold every asset they owned including the family house, in order to pay their 'debts'.
I would suggest there's a starting model right there to raise funds from and punish all those found responsible; from the PO execs to their investigators, Fujitsu hierarchy, the software creators, every damn person who repeated the 'no, it's only you' mantra, even those who must have been aware of the sudden surge in investigations, the solicitors, the barristers, even the post room... all had a chance to blow the whistle
The fact that the PO was both victim and prosecutor, as if some sort of Star Chamber, utterly sickens me.
Marina Hyde did a very good article, which sums up the background very well.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jul...
These b
ds at the Post Office and Fujitsu should be dragged through the courts and be given the full "pour encourager les autres"LeoSayer said:
I've been following this story for a few years and as with others on this thread, anger is the main emotion. I don't know if I can watch the ITV series for this reason.
Anger at the post office's lawyers who failed to investigate or failed to disclose evidence of bugs in the Horizon system that created liabilities out of thin air.
Anger at Post Office and Fujitsu employees for doing everything they can to keep their jobs rather than coming clean about what they knew at trial.
Anger at the post office for avoiding paying anything like reasonable compensation for lives they have ruined.
Anger at the post office senior management who canned a contract with a forensic accounting company (Second Sight) that had uncovered evidence of bugs in the Horizon system.
Anger at the post office for using every legal trick in the book to protect themselves including trying to run the postmaster's legal fund out of money, trying to get the judge recused and forcing the postmaster's barristers to resign.
Anger at post office lawyers, managers and execs who have had memory failure at the current public inquiry. Some truly monumental jobsworths, idiot and liars have been uncovered here and so far none of them have seemingly faced and legal consequences.
The problem is always from the top. There were things appearing in computer weekly back in the 2000's. Massive cover up. Anger at the post office's lawyers who failed to investigate or failed to disclose evidence of bugs in the Horizon system that created liabilities out of thin air.
Anger at Post Office and Fujitsu employees for doing everything they can to keep their jobs rather than coming clean about what they knew at trial.
Anger at the post office for avoiding paying anything like reasonable compensation for lives they have ruined.
Anger at the post office senior management who canned a contract with a forensic accounting company (Second Sight) that had uncovered evidence of bugs in the Horizon system.
Anger at the post office for using every legal trick in the book to protect themselves including trying to run the postmaster's legal fund out of money, trying to get the judge recused and forcing the postmaster's barristers to resign.
Anger at post office lawyers, managers and execs who have had memory failure at the current public inquiry. Some truly monumental jobsworths, idiot and liars have been uncovered here and so far none of them have seemingly faced and legal consequences.
Those administrators / developers / Helpdesk / lawyers / investigators and anyone who isn't a board level or just under is unlikely to whistleblow because they know that Fujitsu and the post office have a massive weight of money / lawyers (and government) behind them and the ability to destroy anyone that happens to raise their head. All very well to say that you would take a principled approach but when you have a family / mortgage / lifestyle that will almost certainly be wiped out if you do go ahead and speak up I can understand why people didn't come forward.
There isn't a single board member of the post office (past of present) that has come forward to explain or point the blame at someone/something. It's a massive coverup.
Started watching this and couldn't bring myself to continue as it's just too sad and enraging, but I'm glad they've made the series and I hope it reaches an audience who might have been less aware of the scandal. Truly shameful.
What's even more galling is that tens of millions of pounds are still being paid to Fujitsu in ongoing contracts as the Post Office is still using Horizon and has so far failed to fulfil its intention to move away from it.
What's even more galling is that tens of millions of pounds are still being paid to Fujitsu in ongoing contracts as the Post Office is still using Horizon and has so far failed to fulfil its intention to move away from it.
tamore said:
Alickadoo said:
What I am suggesting is that we keep a sense of proportion.
The Post Office is not totally corrupt. It may have been partially corrupt.
The country is not ruined.
I am suggesting that we avoid exaggerated language.
Calm down, dear.
i agree. however, as a country we need to be better at going after people with money/influence when appropriate. The Post Office is not totally corrupt. It may have been partially corrupt.
The country is not ruined.
I am suggesting that we avoid exaggerated language.
Calm down, dear.
There's a certain level/group/class of people who think they're untouchable. They go from senior role to senior role, regardless of big mistakes in the past. A lot of it is the whole culture of hiring big names to impress.
The ex-Natwest CEO is/will be another.
markymarkthree said:
LeoSayer said:
I've been following this story for a few years and as with others on this thread, anger is the main emotion. I don't know if I can watch the ITV series for this reason.
Anger at the post office's lawyers who failed to investigate or failed to disclose evidence of bugs in the Horizon system that created liabilities out of thin air.
Anger at Post Office and Fujitsu employees for doing everything they can to keep their jobs rather than coming clean about what they knew at trial.
Anger at the post office for avoiding paying anything like reasonable compensation for lives they have ruined.
Anger at the post office senior management who canned a contract with a forensic accounting company (Second Sight) that had uncovered evidence of bugs in the Horizon system.
Anger at the post office for using every legal trick in the book to protect themselves including trying to run the postmaster's legal fund out of money, trying to get the judge recused and forcing the postmaster's barristers to resign.
Anger at post office lawyers, managers and execs who have had memory failure at the current public inquiry. Some truly monumental jobsworths, idiot and liars have been uncovered here and so far none of them have seemingly faced and legal consequences.
With you there all the way LS.Anger at the post office's lawyers who failed to investigate or failed to disclose evidence of bugs in the Horizon system that created liabilities out of thin air.
Anger at Post Office and Fujitsu employees for doing everything they can to keep their jobs rather than coming clean about what they knew at trial.
Anger at the post office for avoiding paying anything like reasonable compensation for lives they have ruined.
Anger at the post office senior management who canned a contract with a forensic accounting company (Second Sight) that had uncovered evidence of bugs in the Horizon system.
Anger at the post office for using every legal trick in the book to protect themselves including trying to run the postmaster's legal fund out of money, trying to get the judge recused and forcing the postmaster's barristers to resign.
Anger at post office lawyers, managers and execs who have had memory failure at the current public inquiry. Some truly monumental jobsworths, idiot and liars have been uncovered here and so far none of them have seemingly faced and legal consequences.
I cant explain why this issue pi55es me off so much, but it does and has done for a number of years.
I watched it last night and it has made me feel more anger at the PO than anything else i can think of.
Nurburgsingh said:
I'm sure Fujitsu have got enough to help pay compensation.
I'm sure they have too (used to work for them) and remember years ago being brought up in a sub post office/shop business and the main threat then was from attempted robberies so extra security glass was fitted all round, the safe had doors that were inches thick and looked bullet proof and the day's transactions were balanced up on an old mechanical calculator (Olivetti). Using the new technology available should have made the job easier but then to find out the biggest enemy was your own employer just beggar's belief.Enthralling viewing all the same and hope they all get the compensation they deserve, you really couldn't make it up
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