Game of Thrones - No spoilers
Discussion
BJG1 said:
Consent because you're petrified for your own safety is not consent. That scene depicted rape. Not that I have an issue with that but let's not pretend it wasn't, even if it's all she could have reasonably have expected to happen.
It is more than consent, she made a conscious choice to be in that room on that night with that man. She can't even claim to be duped into thinking he was loving and caring. She has known all along what he and his family were like. She put herself in that situation when she first chose to side with Carcetti at that hearing even after watching him murder her aunt. You can't walk into a pit of snakes and then claim that you don't consent to being bitten.
Rape? It wasn't rape. Its a made up story with actors being told what made up signs and sounds to make by a director when acting. Pretty sure the actress didn't really get penetrated.
What's next? we'll be getting upset about Aliens getting killed by bad guys using mystical unseen forces. Alien genocide.
What's next? we'll be getting upset about Aliens getting killed by bad guys using mystical unseen forces. Alien genocide.
redtwin said:
It is more than consent, she made a conscious choice to be in that room on that night with that man. She can't even claim to be duped into thinking he was loving and caring. She has known all along what he and his family were like. She put herself in that situation when she first chose to side with Carcetti at that hearing even after watching him murder her aunt.
You can't walk into a pit of snakes and then claim that you don't consent to being bitten.
That doesn't mean it's not rape. You can't walk into a pit of snakes and then claim that you don't consent to being bitten.
I think it's quite a grey one. I'm not sure it was rape, the consummation is traditional - I'm not saying that automatically grants consent, but it's an expected event.
To me it seemed more that he wasn't raping her against her will, more that he was acting out his own nasty interpretation of the consummation tradition, if that makes sense?
To me it seemed more that he wasn't raping her against her will, more that he was acting out his own nasty interpretation of the consummation tradition, if that makes sense?
TTmonkey said:
Rape? It wasn't rape. Its a made up story with actors being told what made up signs and sounds to make by a director when acting. Pretty sure the actress didn't really get penetrated.
What's next? we'll be getting upset about Aliens getting killed by bad guys using mystical unseen forces. Alien genocide.
Exactly. Fake (off screen) rape on a fake show about stuff that never happened. Weird that people would get all emotional about it?What's next? we'll be getting upset about Aliens getting killed by bad guys using mystical unseen forces. Alien genocide.
IMO there's a lot worse that happens in it, Red wedding for one. Stabbing a pregnant woman in the stomach repeatedly, that's pretty bad.
smithyithy said:
I think it's quite a grey one. I'm not sure it was rape, the consummation is traditional - I'm not saying that automatically grants consent, but it's an expected event.
To me it seemed more that he wasn't raping her against her will, more that he was acting out his own nasty interpretation of the consummation tradition, if that makes sense?
He aggressively insisted that Theon stay, something he will know beyond certainty that she is not happy to consent to, but is too afraid to say otherwise. It is rape, there's nothing grey about it. It genuinely worries me that people don't look at that scene and know that it's rape. To me it seemed more that he wasn't raping her against her will, more that he was acting out his own nasty interpretation of the consummation tradition, if that makes sense?
KillerHERTZ said:
The Sandsnakes acting was woeful, they dont come across as menencing at all.
Just leave this here:
The one on the right looks like she is performing in a GCSE play.
Just leave this here:
The one on the right looks like she is performing in a GCSE play.
Just had to re-quote this.The fighting did struck me as very badly choreographed. I mean, the first time you see them they throw a spear from quite a distance through a guy's head. Now they can hardly hit a one-armed man?
TREMAiNE said:
BJG1 said:
It genuinely worries me that people don't look at that scene and know that it's rape.
+1I can't believe its being discussed. It's rape, no doubt about it.
It's worrying that people aren't entirely sure what rape is!
If is sad though that the character is such a constant victim but I hope that this changes. Interesting that it is another distinct change from the books.
Steve
Nonsense, she went to Winterfell knowing full well she was to be married and bedded. She didn't have to go to Winterfell.
Sure she wasn't terribly excited at the prospect, not compared to sleeping with Lord Sausage Smuggler from High Garden, but if anything this lessens the impact further.
She willingly slept with someone she didn't have any desire to sleep with, for personal gain.
It's basically a girl power moment when you think about it.
Sure she wasn't terribly excited at the prospect, not compared to sleeping with Lord Sausage Smuggler from High Garden, but if anything this lessens the impact further.
She willingly slept with someone she didn't have any desire to sleep with, for personal gain.
It's basically a girl power moment when you think about it.
I agree with both of the above.
She was going to winterfell, knowing what she "had" to do there.
However, once there, here decision was final and she could not not do it.
In current day terms, if she went on a date at a guys house, knowing full well what would happen that night, but on the last moment having second thoughts, the guy can then force himself on her, as she knew what she was walking into?
Like it or not, it's rape. But, here the feared "she was asking for it" could apply. Basically she made a decision a time ago and now bears the consequences.
She was going to winterfell, knowing what she "had" to do there.
However, once there, here decision was final and she could not not do it.
In current day terms, if she went on a date at a guys house, knowing full well what would happen that night, but on the last moment having second thoughts, the guy can then force himself on her, as she knew what she was walking into?
Like it or not, it's rape. But, here the feared "she was asking for it" could apply. Basically she made a decision a time ago and now bears the consequences.
I'm sure she'd have refused sex if she felt she could, so in that sense yes it's rape.
However, in the GoT universe, marriage is consummated on the wedding night, that is the tradition and everyone knows it. She would've had to do it with Tyrion had he decided. In the context of the world, saying 'I do' is effectively giving agreeing to that marriage night sex isn't it?
She might be naive but she's been there before, she knows how weddings work in Westeros. She said 'I do' at the ceremony, which - rightly or wrongly - can simply be perceived as consent to the consummation later that night. I'm not 'victim blaming', but what else did she expect?
I think this is where the outrage has stemmed from, not so much that she had sex against her will, but that her character - who was seemingly pulling herself together and gaining some strength - has been written back into the role of the naive victim.
However, in the GoT universe, marriage is consummated on the wedding night, that is the tradition and everyone knows it. She would've had to do it with Tyrion had he decided. In the context of the world, saying 'I do' is effectively giving agreeing to that marriage night sex isn't it?
She might be naive but she's been there before, she knows how weddings work in Westeros. She said 'I do' at the ceremony, which - rightly or wrongly - can simply be perceived as consent to the consummation later that night. I'm not 'victim blaming', but what else did she expect?
I think this is where the outrage has stemmed from, not so much that she had sex against her will, but that her character - who was seemingly pulling herself together and gaining some strength - has been written back into the role of the naive victim.
I would say it was rape. It wasn't pleasant viewing but there are many things in this show which are not nice. Part of it's appeal is that it is not afraid to shock.
Agreed. Take the head crushing end to the fight between Oberon and The Mountain.
If is sad though that the character is such a constant victim but I hope that this changes. Interesting that it is another distinct change from the books.
I'v not read the books, but I imagine they will let us see her hit rock bottom before she turns it around. I expect to see her put up with a little more before she lops his head off or similar.
Agreed. Take the head crushing end to the fight between Oberon and The Mountain.
If is sad though that the character is such a constant victim but I hope that this changes. Interesting that it is another distinct change from the books.
I'v not read the books, but I imagine they will let us see her hit rock bottom before she turns it around. I expect to see her put up with a little more before she lops his head off or similar.
smithyithy said:
I'm sure she'd have refused sex if she felt she could, so in that sense yes it's rape.
However, in the GoT universe, marriage is consummated on the wedding night, that is the tradition and everyone knows it. She would've had to do it with Tyrion had he decided. In the context of the world, saying 'I do' is effectively giving agreeing to that marriage night sex isn't it?
She might be naive but she's been there before, she knows how weddings work in Westeros. She said 'I do' at the ceremony, which - rightly or wrongly - can simply be perceived as consent to the consummation later that night. I'm not 'victim blaming', but what else did she expect?
I think this is where the outrage has stemmed from, not so much that she had sex against her will, but that her character - who was seemingly pulling herself together and gaining some strength - has been written back into the role of the naive victim.
In the game of thrones world is it expected that your husband will insist ob your adopted brother, now a sksve with his penis chopped off, will be made to watch?However, in the GoT universe, marriage is consummated on the wedding night, that is the tradition and everyone knows it. She would've had to do it with Tyrion had he decided. In the context of the world, saying 'I do' is effectively giving agreeing to that marriage night sex isn't it?
She might be naive but she's been there before, she knows how weddings work in Westeros. She said 'I do' at the ceremony, which - rightly or wrongly - can simply be perceived as consent to the consummation later that night. I'm not 'victim blaming', but what else did she expect?
I think this is where the outrage has stemmed from, not so much that she had sex against her will, but that her character - who was seemingly pulling herself together and gaining some strength - has been written back into the role of the naive victim.
I don't get the outrage over the scene and I understand she would/should have expected it to happen but there should be absolutely no discussion as to whether or was rape or not
Originally GoT's willingness to kill, maim and debase its leading characters was refreshing, but recently it's become so perpetually dark that hope is starting to ebb out of the story.
Unless there is some light to balance the dark hope it becomes pointless watching. There must be some respite to the depression.
So far Aya has done…nothing. John Snow has done…bugger all. Sansa..well we all know about the predicament she's got herself into. Dragon girl's having a tough time of it. Where's the story to root for?
Time to off a baddie I say.
Unless there is some light to balance the dark hope it becomes pointless watching. There must be some respite to the depression.
So far Aya has done…nothing. John Snow has done…bugger all. Sansa..well we all know about the predicament she's got herself into. Dragon girl's having a tough time of it. Where's the story to root for?
Time to off a baddie I say.
TREMAiNE said:
It's worrying that people aren't entirely sure what rape is!
Yes and no, IMO.Certainly it is by contemporary standards - although in fairness it's only relatively recently that English courts ruled that it's possible to be raped by a spouse. Until then, it was assumed that if you were married you were deemed to consent.
I suspect though that a lot of the "WTF is the fuss about?" school of thought are looking at it from the point of view of (a) it's set in a pseudo-medieval era where it would not have been considered as such; (b) it's hardly surprising given what we already know about Ramsay Bolton; and (c) it was all implied rather than shown.
irocfan said:
good Lord if we were to apply modern real life standards to this series I suspect that most of the characters would be in a padded cell with a fair chunk of the remainder in counselling...
I don't - and I certainly wasn't suggesting that anyone else should either.I do suspect though that a lot of those up in arms at it are viewing it at least partially through the prism of modern mores rather than what is fair game in a fantasy context and/or the roughly analogous historical period.
I also suspect that a lot of the hyperbolic articles online are nothing more than clickbait to drive traffic, given the popularity of GoT....
Lurking Lawyer said:
TREMAiNE said:
It's worrying that people aren't entirely sure what rape is!
Yes and no, IMO.Certainly it is by contemporary standards - although in fairness it's only relatively recently that English courts ruled that it's possible to be raped by a spouse. Until then, it was assumed that if you were married you were deemed to consent.
I suspect though that a lot of the "WTF is the fuss about?" school of thought are looking at it from the point of view of (a) it's set in a pseudo-medieval era where it would not have been considered as such; (b) it's hardly surprising given what we already know about Ramsay Bolton; and (c) it was all implied rather than shown.
Gassing Station | TV, Film, Video Streaming & Radio | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff