New teachers strike wtf
Discussion
Mr Snap said:
Sorry, no time to respond fully at the moment.
Not quite the point I was making but not a million miles away, here's some food for thought from The Master of Wellington (and ex Head of Brighton College, recently voted the top Independent School, I believe):
http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/education/10948378....
Brighton Argus 20th Jan
"In a report for the Social Market Foundation think-tank, The Master at Wellington College in Berkshire said the move was essential to close the “unfair” gap in achievement between the richest and poorest.
The 60-year-old said: “We have to end this unfair farce whereby middle-class parents dominate the best schools, when they could afford to pay and even boast of their moral superiority in using the state system when all they are doing is squeezing out the poor from the best schools.”
Laying out his proposal Dr Seldon said families with a combined income of £80,000 should be charged if their child attends an oversubscribed school.
Those earning £200,000 a year would be forced to pay £20,000 a year for secondary schools and £15,000 for primary schools.
The amounts are equivalent to what it would cost at private schools.
He added it is only fair that if parents can afford to pay for better schooling, which they have secured by using their sharp elbows to monopolise the best schools, then they should be made to do so. He said: “Instead of estate agents and private tutors getting rich let’s put this money into the state system.
“The more parents earn the more they should pay”.
Explaining his fears in the report, he said the waste of talent was harming the country’s economic progress.
The finger was largely pointed at wealthy parents who he said creamed the places at the best state schools by buying houses in the local catchment area and then paying for private tutoring to ensure their children passed the entry exam if required.
As part of his proposal he also said more private schools should sponsor state academies.
He concluded: “Britain will be in debt for many years to come. We should be looking for every possible source of extra funds to come into public services and state schooling is the last great bastion holding out against the principle of payment.”
Edited for typos.
I might be off base here, but isn't this actually making a case for private education, which is surely going to, if he believes in this "gap" just going to make it wider? Not quite the point I was making but not a million miles away, here's some food for thought from The Master of Wellington (and ex Head of Brighton College, recently voted the top Independent School, I believe):
http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/education/10948378....
Brighton Argus 20th Jan
"In a report for the Social Market Foundation think-tank, The Master at Wellington College in Berkshire said the move was essential to close the “unfair” gap in achievement between the richest and poorest.
The 60-year-old said: “We have to end this unfair farce whereby middle-class parents dominate the best schools, when they could afford to pay and even boast of their moral superiority in using the state system when all they are doing is squeezing out the poor from the best schools.”
Laying out his proposal Dr Seldon said families with a combined income of £80,000 should be charged if their child attends an oversubscribed school.
Those earning £200,000 a year would be forced to pay £20,000 a year for secondary schools and £15,000 for primary schools.
The amounts are equivalent to what it would cost at private schools.
He added it is only fair that if parents can afford to pay for better schooling, which they have secured by using their sharp elbows to monopolise the best schools, then they should be made to do so. He said: “Instead of estate agents and private tutors getting rich let’s put this money into the state system.
“The more parents earn the more they should pay”.
Explaining his fears in the report, he said the waste of talent was harming the country’s economic progress.
The finger was largely pointed at wealthy parents who he said creamed the places at the best state schools by buying houses in the local catchment area and then paying for private tutoring to ensure their children passed the entry exam if required.
As part of his proposal he also said more private schools should sponsor state academies.
He concluded: “Britain will be in debt for many years to come. We should be looking for every possible source of extra funds to come into public services and state schooling is the last great bastion holding out against the principle of payment.”
Edited for typos.
As lets face it if you were being means tested for a school place and you had to pay £20k for your local state comp and you could spend the same on the independent school which will have better facilities possibly better results and certainly give greater opportunity based on many factors. Even those that were doing the moral superiority thing would say - ok sod you I may as well pay a better school than the one you are going to force me to pay for.
So the whole premise of what he is suggesting will widen the gap between private and state education further still by driving more parents towards it!
To quote Wogan - Is it me?
RYH64E said:
Mr Snap said:
“We have to end this unfair farce whereby middle-class parents dominate the best schools, when they could afford to pay and even boast of their moral superiority in using the state system when all they are doing is squeezing out the poor from the best schools.”
What do you think would happen if we moved all the middle class kids from the best schools to the ones that the 'poor' send their children to, and at the same time moved the kids from poor families to the current 'best' alternative? I think you'd find a rapid deterioration in the results of the 'best' schools coupled with a simultaneous improvement in the standards at the poor kids former schools. The schools are only partly responsible for the results, it's the children and their parents that have the largest effect, imo.
SpeedMattersNot said:
My opinion too.
And that of dylan William (top education bod) as well. A study he was involved in suggested that the extent of influence of the top state school vs the worst was approximately one grade in one subject. The parental influence made up the rest of the difference.Quoted from memory, can't find the article at the mo!
nadger said:
SpeedMattersNot said:
My opinion too.
And that of dylan William (top education bod) as well. A study he was involved in suggested that the extent of influence of the top state school vs the worst was approximately one grade in one subject. The parental influence made up the rest of the difference.Quoted from memory, can't find the article at the mo!
On a side note, can someone go and reply to my wife on the Gove thread? She often has to listen to my discussions on here, so she took the time last night (at about 2am as she was up doing work anyway) to engage and the only person who replied was obviously someone who has a serious mental illness. Much appreciated
SpeedMattersNot said:
really wouldn't be surprised, to be honest.
On a side note, can someone go and reply to my wife on the Gove thread? She often has to listen to my discussions on here, so she took the time last night (at about 2am as she was up doing work anyway) to engage and the only person who replied was obviously someone who has a serious mental illness. Much appreciated
Done On a side note, can someone go and reply to my wife on the Gove thread? She often has to listen to my discussions on here, so she took the time last night (at about 2am as she was up doing work anyway) to engage and the only person who replied was obviously someone who has a serious mental illness. Much appreciated
Mr Snap said:
Still no time to respond to previous points. But please don't confuse my opinions with Dr Seldon's. I was merely drawing attention to what he said; his statement falls within the same nexus but I don't necessarily agree with him.
I'd be interested in your views on the proposition that one of the main reasons that the best schools are the best schools is because they're dominated by children from middle class families. It's my understanding that many teachers in poor performing schools complain of having to spend too much time on 'crowd control', and of a complete lack of parental support (the actual phrase I heard was 'they're a bunch of f
king hillbillies'). The better schools, and certainly private schools, don't have these problems to anything like the same extent and so can concentrate on teaching.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-27100733
"The National Union of Teachers' conference has voted for a strike that could close schools in England and Wales in the week beginning 23 June."
I'm sensing a bit of a supply and demand mismatch here, I thought there were lots of teachers looking for work and even more in training/at uni
Or perhaps that's just up 'ere in Scotland.
If the jobs are that ste that they're having to strike, why don't more just change career?
"The National Union of Teachers' conference has voted for a strike that could close schools in England and Wales in the week beginning 23 June."
I'm sensing a bit of a supply and demand mismatch here, I thought there were lots of teachers looking for work and even more in training/at uni
Or perhaps that's just up 'ere in Scotland.If the jobs are that s
te that they're having to strike, why don't more just change career?simoid said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-27100733
"The National Union of Teachers' conference has voted for a strike that could close schools in England and Wales in the week beginning 23 June."
I'm sensing a bit of a supply and demand mismatch here, I thought there were lots of teachers looking for work and even more in training/at uni Or perhaps that's just up 'ere in Scotland.
If the jobs are that ste that they're having to strike, why don't more just change career?
You're a teacher, simoid - what do you think?"The National Union of Teachers' conference has voted for a strike that could close schools in England and Wales in the week beginning 23 June."
I'm sensing a bit of a supply and demand mismatch here, I thought there were lots of teachers looking for work and even more in training/at uni
Or perhaps that's just up 'ere in Scotland.If the jobs are that s
te that they're having to strike, why don't more just change career?At a guess the pay issue at the heart of the strike threat isn't the waste of public money on underperfoming teachers in the NUT or something else potentially helpful to pupils. That would be a refreshing change though.
Then again it couldn't possibly be something to do with wanting the already high levels of teacher pay to be very high, and gold plated pensions repaced by platinum plated pensions, all at public expense, not a chance as these are committed professionals.
Then again it couldn't possibly be something to do with wanting the already high levels of teacher pay to be very high, and gold plated pensions repaced by platinum plated pensions, all at public expense, not a chance as these are committed professionals.
Each day strike is zero pay and also they reduce the number of total days for their pensions both reducing cost to the taxman.
I wonder what the breakeven point is x number of days strike pays for the benefits they want to retain
I have a BIL who is a socialist and a teacher he is flagging up the 60 hours a week he has to do - (I do more and get a mere 5 weeks off not 13 - but I am not complaining). My point always is IF you don't like it then you can always look for another role -oh hold on he tried that for two years and could only get supermarket jobs ... Read into that as you will
I wonder what the breakeven point is x number of days strike pays for the benefits they want to retain
I have a BIL who is a socialist and a teacher he is flagging up the 60 hours a week he has to do - (I do more and get a mere 5 weeks off not 13 - but I am not complaining). My point always is IF you don't like it then you can always look for another role -oh hold on he tried that for two years and could only get supermarket jobs ... Read into that as you will
Welshbeef said:
My point always is IF you don't like it then you can always look for another role -oh hold on he tried that for two years and could only get supermarket jobs ... Read into that as you will
So you advocate the 'if you don't like it, then fk off' school of management which, logically, would lead to the creation of a miserable and demotivated profession where the only people left in it are those who are unable to secure an alternative career due to their lack of skills. Yes, those are certainly the people I would want teaching my kids. Much better than some ludicrously clever, multi-talented graduate who foresook a career in the City because they thought they might be able to do some good as a teacher. And would I begrudge them 40k a year for a 60hr week, 39 weeks a year? Nope.
And no, I'm not a teacher. And I never could be, because it's too much effort for the money. As for the pension, putting up with other peoples over-entitled brats for 30 years should result in a knighthood, let alone a good pension.
Edited by Joey Ramone on Monday 21st April 15:52
Joey Ramone said:
So you advocate the 'if you don't like it, then fk off' school of management which, logically, would lead to the creation of a miserable and demotivated profession where the only people left in it are those who are unable to secure an alternative career due to their lack of skills.
Yes, those are certainly the people I would want teaching my kids. Much better than some ludicrously clever, multi-talented graduate who foresook a career in the City because they thought they might be able to do some good as a teacher. And would I begrudge them 40k a year for a 60hr week, 39 weeks a year? Nope.
And no, I'm not s teacher. And I never could be, because it's too much effort for the money. As for the pension, I'm pretty sure teachers have the least life expectancy post-retirement, so whoop-de-do.
Did you just pull that out of your ass? Are you a teacher?k off' school of management which, logically, would lead to the creation of a miserable and demotivated profession where the only people left in it are those who are unable to secure an alternative career due to their lack of skills. Yes, those are certainly the people I would want teaching my kids. Much better than some ludicrously clever, multi-talented graduate who foresook a career in the City because they thought they might be able to do some good as a teacher. And would I begrudge them 40k a year for a 60hr week, 39 weeks a year? Nope.
And no, I'm not s teacher. And I never could be, because it's too much effort for the money. As for the pension, I'm pretty sure teachers have the least life expectancy post-retirement, so whoop-de-do.
BBC said:
In looking for examples of the claim that average life expectancy at retirement for certain professions is only 18 months, More or Less found that teachers are repeat offenders in claiming this.
"I'm not sure why teachers would expect to have short life expectancy," says Grimshaw. "They are an above average social economic group. Office for National Statistics data would suggest that teachers and similar groups to them would have over 18 years to live at age 65 [for men]."
So next time a teacher tells you, resignedly, that they work so hard they can expect to survive only 18 months after retirement, point out that their pessimism is based on a myth.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18952037"I'm not sure why teachers would expect to have short life expectancy," says Grimshaw. "They are an above average social economic group. Office for National Statistics data would suggest that teachers and similar groups to them would have over 18 years to live at age 65 [for men]."
So next time a teacher tells you, resignedly, that they work so hard they can expect to survive only 18 months after retirement, point out that their pessimism is based on a myth.
Joey Ramone said:
So you advocate the 'if you don't like it, then fk off' school of management which, logically, would lead to the creation of a miserable and demotivated profession where the only people left in it are those who are unable to secure an alternative career due to their lack of skills.
We have a bunch of teachers in the family and they all seem pretty miserable and demotivated at the best of times!k off' school of management which, logically, would lead to the creation of a miserable and demotivated profession where the only people left in it are those who are unable to secure an alternative career due to their lack of skills. "Lack of support" from senior staff / the Head (and one of them is pretty senior herself) seems to be the big issue. I guess many say that about their jobs, but just get on with it. I suppose the difference with teachers is that they've got people breathing down their necks the whole time - they can't just not do stuff because they don't want to.
Joey Ramone said:
So you advocate the 'if you don't like it, then fk off' school of management which, logically, would lead to the creation of a miserable and demotivated profession where the only people left in it are those who are unable to secure an alternative career due to their lack of skills.
Yes, those are certainly the people I would want teaching my kids. Much better than some ludicrously clever, multi-talented graduate who foresook a career in the City because they thought they might be able to do some good as a teacher. And would I begrudge them 40k a year for a 60hr week, 39 weeks a year? Nope.
And no, I'm not a teacher. And I never could be, because it's too much effort for the money. As for the pension, putting up with other peoples over-entitled brats for 30 years should result in a knighthood, let alone a good pension.
I couldn't agree more. Given how comparatively "well paid" teaching is supposed to be (in PH-world) you'd think more PH-ers would be teachers.k off' school of management which, logically, would lead to the creation of a miserable and demotivated profession where the only people left in it are those who are unable to secure an alternative career due to their lack of skills. Yes, those are certainly the people I would want teaching my kids. Much better than some ludicrously clever, multi-talented graduate who foresook a career in the City because they thought they might be able to do some good as a teacher. And would I begrudge them 40k a year for a 60hr week, 39 weeks a year? Nope.
And no, I'm not a teacher. And I never could be, because it's too much effort for the money. As for the pension, putting up with other peoples over-entitled brats for 30 years should result in a knighthood, let alone a good pension.
Edited by Joey Ramone on Monday 21st April 15:52
(In my opinion) unless you're in a cushy girls-only secondary school in leafy Surrey where parents evenings are full of yummy mummies and impotent hedge-fund managers it's fecking long hours and hard work for comparatively little pay. The pay is barely sufficient and recruitment would be a nightmare IF there weren't a lot of teachers who did it for the job satisfaction.
It appears that people want Waitrose-quality for their shopping but Aldi-quality for their children's education.
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