New teachers strike wtf

[spud989]

I love how everyone thinks that by measuring people more that's the answer to everything and, suddenly, once they're fired, all will be well.

Try this one for size: I'm the head of English at a school in Doncaster. I needed a better quality of staff in so as to try and raise the department's attainment, so I recently convinced the headteacher to advertise for a mainscale + TLR2B position (approx. £4,500). To be honest, we both hoped for several decent applicants, so we could try and appoint two instead of one. We only got 2 applications - 1 was from someone who we got to apply through our contacts, who wouldn't ordinarily have done so, and 1 the background/application/references of the other one were so egregious that we were angry she had the temerity to apply at all.

So, for a job which is paying a minimum of £30k a year (given no one would get a 2B position without a couple of years experience) and potentially a chunk more, I had a choice of 1 - a choice that wouldn't normally have been there either.

You can measure/account/fire people as much as you like, but in some areas of the country there simply aren't any good teachers to hire to replace them, especially when it comes to certain schools.

So the question is obvious: why aren't there the people to appoint?

Edited by spud989 on Friday 25th April 23:32

[NPI]

spud989 said:

So, for a job which is paying a minimum of £30k a year (given no one would get a 2B position without a couple of years experience) and potentially a chunk more, I had a choice of 1 - a choice that wouldn't normally have been there either.

A school we're aware of in S Cheshire advertised for an Associate Head (which I think is a £50K ish job) recently and apparently no one applied.

It seems to me that a lot of teaching jobs are basically filled through contacts sometimes a bit more blatently than others.

[Countdown]

spud989 said:

So the question is obvious: why aren't there the people to appoint?

Because the salaries are low and the work is damned hard (in my opinion). There are easier ways to make more money.

[anonymous-user]

Rovinghawk said:

So nobody knows which teachers are good & which are bad?

I find that difficult to believe.

Of course they know, everybody knows, including, if they care, the parents and kids.

[mikebradford]

spud989 said:

You can measure/account/fire people as much as you like, but in some areas of the country there simply aren't any good teachers to hire to replace them, especially when it comes to certain schools.

So the question is obvious: why aren't there the people to appoint?

You can apply that to the private sector. Quality of staff is always the issue,
Differance being the private sector doesnt appear to reward as generously, those idividuals who are not as good at their jobs.

And it all ends up back to the root of the problem, far too many leave school with little or no real ability.
And a society that appears to be breeding the workshy!
Parents are especially responsible, but teachers should be held accountable for their part.

[spud989]

NPI said:

spud989 said:

So, for a job which is paying a minimum of £30k a year (given no one would get a 2B position without a couple of years experience) and potentially a chunk more, I had a choice of 1 - a choice that wouldn't normally have been there either.

A school we're aware of in S Cheshire advertised for an Associate Head (which I think is a £50K ish job) recently and apparently no one applied.

It seems to me that a lot of teaching jobs are basically filled through contacts sometimes a bit more blatently than others.

Associate Head could be anything from 45k to about 70k depending on the size of the school, type of role, whether there's an executive from a federation above it, etc.

mikebradford said:

spud989 said:

You can measure/account/fire people as much as you like, but in some areas of the country there simply aren't any good teachers to hire to replace them, especially when it comes to certain schools.

So the question is obvious: why aren't there the people to appoint?

You can apply that to the private sector. Quality of staff is always the issue,
Differance being the private sector doesnt appear to reward as generously, those idividuals who are not as good at their jobs.

In some cases it doesn't, in other cases I'm sure it's a good deal worse.

But the favourite argument of the private sector is that the market decides - after all, that's how bankers' bonuses can be so high, so they say, because otherwise they'll jump ship to someone else. If the wages are good then they'll stay. Fair enough.

So when my school is offering a second in English job, paid between just short of 30k and up to 42k, depending on your level of experience, and we get such a dearth of applicants, it certainly says something rather damning about the level of pay, the pressure/conditions of the job, the difficulty of the work or whatever else you care to blame. If it didn't, I'd be inundated with quality applicants?

Side point: I work in a reasonably 'tough' school at the moment, but results-wise its on an upward trajectory at the moment (I hope!), so it would be tempting for the right/ambitious people to work in. But these points I'm making stand for 'Outstanding' schools in the area - one of which I've just left and it had the same problems recruiting. I know that recently they had zero applications for a main scale English teaching job (salary: 22-37k, depending on experience), despite being one of the best schools in the area.

So with no staff to replace them, and people being put under more punitive regimes by every man and his dog until they're fired/forced out through competency procedures, exactly who is going to be left to teach? I'd love to hear a convincing response!

[Zoobeef]

I have a few friends teach at Adwick or whatever they like to call it now.
It was "tough" when I was there just over 10 years ago. Don't know if its still the tough one your talking about. Looks shiney though.

[spud989]

That's not where I am, but I think we're similar. That narrows it down enough

[turbobloke]

spud989 said:

But the favourite argument of the private sector is that the market decides - after all, that's how bankers' bonuses can be so high, so they say, because otherwise they'll jump ship to someone else. If the wages are good then they'll stay. Fair enough.

So when my school is offering a second in English job, paid between just short of 30k and up to 42k, depending on your level of experience, and we get such a dearth of applicants, it certainly says something rather damning about the level of pay, the pressure/conditions of the job, the difficulty of the work or whatever else you care to blame. If it didn't, I'd be inundated with quality applicants?

Can't disagree with that, though it's more than a favourite argument it's a fact of life, and you've just described one facet of it. The position with teaching overall at the moment, particularly with schools in challenging circumstances, is that there may be zero applicants for a 'reasonably well paid' job. Solving this may not be entirely about pay, as there are also zero or few applicants for some headteacher jobs heading towards £100k (I appreciate that HTs can be paid more than that). Other working conditions must come into it as people are looking at the profession, and then looking again at senior posts when considering promotion within the profession, and thinking "that is just not something I want to do". At the risk of a pointed reply I'd still say that teaching is well paid for NQTs and recent entrants to the profession but it still doesn't pay the best teachers and school leaders enough later on. The marketplace seems to agree.

spud989 said:

I'd love to hear a convincing response!

From Michael Gove most probably!

[spud989]

turbobloke said:

spud989 said:

But the favourite argument of the private sector is that the market decides - after all, that's how bankers' bonuses can be so high, so they say, because otherwise they'll jump ship to someone else. If the wages are good then they'll stay. Fair enough.

So when my school is offering a second in English job, paid between just short of 30k and up to 42k, depending on your level of experience, and we get such a dearth of applicants, it certainly says something rather damning about the level of pay, the pressure/conditions of the job, the difficulty of the work or whatever else you care to blame. If it didn't, I'd be inundated with quality applicants?

Can't disagree with that, though it's more than a favourite argument it's a fact of life, and you've just described one facet of it. The position with teaching overall at the moment, particularly with schools in challenging circumstances, is that there may be zero applicants for a 'reasonably well paid' job. Solving this may not be entirely about pay, as there are also zero or few applicants for some headteacher jobs heading towards £100k (I appreciate that HTs can be paid more than that). Other working conditions must come into it as people are looking at the profession, and then looking again at senior posts when considering promotion within the profession, and thinking "that is just not something I want to do". At the risk of a pointed reply I'd still say that teaching is well paid for NQTs and recent entrants to the profession but it still doesn't pay the best teachers and school leaders enough later on. The marketplace seems to agree.

spud989 said:

I'd love to hear a convincing response!

From Michael Gove most probably!

Anyone will do! I just want to be able to appoint decent people, rather than having an option of virtually no-one.

Where do you see teacher pay going in the next few years? Aside from schools having more control over what they pay, obviously.

Personally, I think for some areas there's a bit of a 'brain drain' scenario at work. People like me who go to university from Shorpe/Doncaster, who often go to places like Leeds (as I did) or York or Sheffield, often end up staying there in our little 'regional cities', meaning the provinces are left with nothing. I know from my own experience that teacher recruitment in Shorpe is just as difficult as it is in Doncaster, for example. Schools in categories also have an effect, but the chances for progression/making an impact should partly negate that.

[Mr Snap]

turbobloke said:

spud989 said:

But the favourite argument of the private sector is that the market decides - after all, that's how bankers' bonuses can be so high, so they say, because otherwise they'll jump ship to someone else. If the wages are good then they'll stay. Fair enough.

So when my school is offering a second in English job, paid between just short of 30k and up to 42k, depending on your level of experience, and we get such a dearth of applicants, it certainly says something rather damning about the level of pay, the pressure/conditions of the job, the difficulty of the work or whatever else you care to blame. If it didn't, I'd be inundated with quality applicants?

Can't disagree with that, though it's more than a favourite argument it's a fact of life, and you've just described one facet of it. The position with teaching overall at the moment, particularly with schools in challenging circumstances, is that there may be zero applicants for a 'reasonably well paid' job. Solving this may not be entirely about pay, as there are also zero or few applicants for some headteacher jobs heading towards £100k (I appreciate that HTs can be paid more than that). Other working conditions must come into it as people are looking at the profession, and then looking again at senior posts when considering promotion within the profession, and thinking "that is just not something I want to do". At the risk of a pointed reply I'd still say that teaching is well paid for NQTs and recent entrants to the profession but it still doesn't pay the best teachers and school leaders enough later on. The marketplace seems to agree.

As you say, people don't want to go for senior management because the roles tend to be too demanding for the money. Who in their right mind would want to be a Deputy Head, say, with responsibility for discipline in an under-performing Comp with 1500 lairy kids (and their 1500-3000 lairy parents)?

This situation, I believe, a fundamental cause of dissatisfaction amongst teachers because it means that important jobs, like discipline, aren't getting done and there's no plausible career pathway - and hence the strikes. I don't think you can lay the blame for this state of affairs with the teachers.

[turbobloke]

spud989 said:

Where do you see teacher pay going in the next few years? Aside from schools having more control over what they pay, obviously.

At the risk of opening Pandora's box by mentioning the words Academy and Free School...these could well be a welcome source of upward pressure on teachers' pay. Obviously I appreciate that unions like to point out the ability of such schools to pay less than the standard scales, but the freedom available is also there to pay good teachers and school leaders more. At the moment there's not much in it but you asked about the future and there's hope that good teachers and school leaders will see pay increases.

You may well be ware of this already but this is from the School Workforce in England First Statistical Release dated April 2013 and relating to 2012. There may have been an update already this month relating to 2013 but I haven't looked for it as yet.

• The average salary for classroom teachers working in LA maintained nursery/primary schools was £32,200; for leadership group teachers it was £51,900
• The average salary for classroom teachers working in primary academy schools was £31,100; for leadership group teachers it was £53,600
• The average salary for classroom teachers working in LA maintained secondary schools was £36,100; for leadership group teachers it was £60,900
• The average salary for classroom teachers working in secondary academy schools was £35,200; for leadership group teachers it was £61,900

Mr Snap said:

As you say, people don't want to go for senior management because the roles tend to be too demanding for the money. Who in their right mind would want to be a Deputy Head, say, with responsibility for discipline in an under-performing Comp with 1500 lairy kids (and their 1500-3000 lairy parents)?

This situation, I believe, a fundamental cause of dissatisfaction amongst teachers because it means that important jobs, like discipline, aren't getting done and there's no plausible career pathway - and hence the strikes. I don't think you can lay the blame for this state of affairs with the teachers.

Given that the position is just as acute for senior leaders if not more, it ought to be ASCL and NAHT taking the lead, they don't seem to have the same appetite though their rhetoric is strong at times. Unless I've missed a strike by SLT that is. I'm not convinced that striking is the answer.

[Mr Snap]

Thought this might be an appropriate moment to bump this thread.

How many people feel that teachers are onto a cushy number today?

I've never been stabbed, but I have been threatened with a knife - occupational hazard when you teach DT, surrounded by blades, in Special Needs…

Blades are regularly confiscated in schools, it's common enough to be a non-event. Schools tend to downplay this type of thing, it doesn't go down well with Ofsted inspectors permanently on the horizon and it tends to upset the parents (who then, out of fear, often turn a blind eye to their kids truanting).

[andymadmak]

Mr Snap said:

Thought this might be an appropriate moment to bump this thread.

you were wrong in your thinking.

Mr Snap said:

How many people feel that teachers are onto a cushy number today?

Your attempt to use this tragic (and thankfully extremely rare) incident to press your case for more money is nauseating. Shame on you.

[fido]

andymadmak said:

Mr Snap said:

How many people feel that teachers are onto a cushy number today?

Your attempt to use this tragic (and thankfully extremely rare) incident to press your case for more money is nauseating. Shame on you.

+1.

[Mr Snap]

If I was a teacher you might have a point.

But I'm not. I left teaching over 15 years ago (and have been earning more ever since).

[nadger]

andymadmak said:

Mr Snap said:

Thought this might be an appropriate moment to bump this thread.

you were wrong in your thinking.

Mr Snap said:

How many people feel that teachers are onto a cushy number today?

Your attempt to use this tragic (and thankfully extremely rare) incident to press your case for more money is nauseating. Shame on you.

Whilst I do agree that it isn't an appropriate time to raise this, or an appropriate event to support his point with, he hasn't mentioned money at all! It appears to me that he is raising the point that teaching isn't as 'cushy' a number as some posters on here have been making out.
However it is possible that I'm wrong!

[anonymous-user]

nadger said:

Whilst I do agree that it isn't an appropriate time to raise this, or an appropriate event to support his point with, he hasn't mentioned money at all! It appears to me that he is raising the point that teaching isn't as 'cushy' a number as some posters on here have been making out.
However it is possible that I'm wrong!

Marxist!

[Mr Snap]

nadger said:

andymadmak said:

Mr Snap said:

Thought this might be an appropriate moment to bump this thread.

you were wrong in your thinking.

Mr Snap said:

How many people feel that teachers are onto a cushy number today?

Your attempt to use this tragic (and thankfully extremely rare) incident to press your case for more money is nauseating. Shame on you.

Whilst I do agree that it isn't an appropriate time to raise this, or an appropriate event to support his point with, he hasn't mentioned money at all! It appears to me that he is raising the point that teaching isn't as 'cushy' a number as some posters on here have been making out.
However it is possible that I'm wrong!

Why isn't this an appropriate time? The point I was making is that there are teachers who have to deal with knives etc on daily basis.

It's nothing to do with the money, it's to do with the constant denigration of teachers here on PH when few people have a clue what some teachers have to deal with on a daily basis. As a teacher, I felt appropriately paid and never went on strike in over 15 years, to read PH you'd think I was on strike for a raise every five minutes.

As I said, knives are a hidden problem and the issue of knives in schools is brushed under the carpet, partly because of things like Ofsted. Today knives are news, so it's absolutely appropriate to bring the issue up and to press it hard. If I'd said remember Phillip Lawrence two days ago, people would have said knives in schools aren't a problem.

This was reported on the DM only a few days ago, it passed completely unnoticed on PH.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2610753/1-...

If that's how many children were caught, how many children do you imagine are carrying knives in a school near you and your kids today? If that doesn't cause you concern, you need your heads examining.

[andymadmak]

Mr Snap said:

Why isn't this an appropriate time? The point I was making is that there are teachers who have to deal with knives etc on daily basis.

It's nothing to do with the money, it's to do with the constant denigration of teachers here on PH when few people have a clue what some teachers have to deal with on a daily basis. As a teacher, I felt appropriately paid and never went on strike in over 15 years, to read PH you'd think I was on strike for a raise every five minutes.

As I said, knives are a hidden problem and the issue of knives in schools is brushed under the carpet, partly because of things like Ofsted. Today knives are news, so it's absolutely appropriate to bring the issue up and to press it hard. If I'd said remember Phillip Lawrence two days ago, people would have said knives in schools aren't a problem.

This was reported on the DM only a few days ago, it passed completely unnoticed on PH.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2610753/1-...

If that's how many children were caught, how many children do you imagine are carrying knives in a school near you and your kids today? If that doesn't cause you concern, you need your heads examining.

Riiiight. So 2 children a day (according to the Mail) have been caught with weapons of some sort over the past 3 years. Total number "almost 1000"
And thats out of a total school population in the period of how many?

One tragic death is not a reason to change ones view of the current abysmal state of education and teaching in this country. Whether you were referring to money, conditions or anything else, it's still not appropriate to use this teachers death as evidence to justify your position.