Mexican Drugs Gangsters Do Not Mess About...
Discussion
devonshiredave said:
Ayahuasca said:
Friday's toll: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX GRISLY
Despite the warning of "GRISLY" I can deal with seeing pictures of dead people however the top of that blog now has a video of two guys being decapitated one with a chainsaw and one with a knife. I hate to be an arbiter of whats reasonable to post but that is f
king disgusting, would it be too much to suggest that link and quotes of it are removed please.AJS- said:
WeirdNeville said:
BUT: It is clear that the war on Drugs isn't working. I would love governments to stand united and do something sensible and coherent to fight the problems drugs generate. And let’s not be under any illusions: Drugs themselves are not the problem. The Money associated with drugs is the problem. The way to tackle the drugs problem is to take the money out of the hands of the criminals who supply them by bypassing the production and supply routes completely, and IMO introducing government control over the entire operation (and only because I couldn't bear Big Pharma or other "profit making" enterprises to be in charge).
At danger of veering off topic, I find the above very strange.As you point out it is more the prohibition on drugs, and the unregulated and vastly profitable market this creates, that causes the problems rather than the drugs themselves. Why are governments, the very people who prohibit drugs and hence cause a large portion of these problems to begin with, better placed to carry on the business than are profit making companies that would move in or spring up to satisfy that market?
Morally, economically and practically I would much rather profit making companies sell the legal drugs we consume.
There shouldn't be, IMO, a "profit" motive in drugs. If there is, you end up with the current dealers simply putting an "inc." after their name and carrying on business as usual, they will be just as powerful and just as dangerous when protecting their revenue streams. And you don't have to look too closely at how big pharmaceutical comapnies do business to realise that really, you don't want them selling higly addictive substances with a profit motive.
But then, we used to fight wars for Opium Supply routes, so no system is perfect.
I'm not saying I have the answer. I doubt anyone does. But at least in cutting out criminals from production to distribution, you take the money away which IMO simplifies the problem of drug abuse massively.
(Perhaps if I can enlaborate on my theory: Drugs can be bought from a Pharmacy. Cocaine, Heroin, Weed, Some pills. All produced to a high standard. Sold in white boxes with nasty pictures of missing frenulums or whatever. You have to produce a licence to buy them. They cost less than the current black market price by some margin to prevent the "undercurrent" black market and to limit any black market revenue streams. You go in, produce your licence, and buy what you want. Limits imposed are consistant with "recreational" and manageable consumption of such substances, which hopefully we'll know much more about as researching such things when they're not illegal is much less difficult. Drug driving etc. is a complete faux pas, as well as being under the influence when other offences are comitted. So, you can buy and use enough to have a good time, and all you're doing is paying some extra tax to the government. However, for those who become addicted, they can sign up there and then at the pharmacy to a treatment programme. Their habit will be managed and they will be asisted to eliminate their drug abuse with the help of the good ole NHS. they will rapidly be assisted back into functioning members of society.)
Fiction maybe... but look at the system we've got now. We simply don't have resources to meet the problem head on, and should we adopt a zero tolerance approach then we'd not only run out of cell space, but lock up half of our population. You will never, ever stop people from getting high. Banning more and more branches of various organic compounds just seems ludicrous. Look at the whole "Plant Food" saga. Utterly ridiculous. Drug abuse and addiction are symptoms of much deeper problems, IMO. But globally drugs have such an influence that governments need to work together to manage their impact. Plenty of countries are as much of a basket case as Mexico right now through the power and money they generate. I also believe we as a developed country (and as citizens) have an ethical reponsibility not to pass on problems to poorer nations through our consumption.
Ayahuasca said:
I can understand the link being deleted, if anyone wants to see what goes on in Mexico just google Blog del Narco. The more people outside Mexico see this stuff the more pressure on the authorities to stop it.
Completely agree that the situation in Mexico should be brought to a wider audience, seeing this has convinced me of a number of things, namely -Mexico: For the good people of Mexico it must be hell on earth. Their authorities are to a greater or lesser extent too corrupt and too impotent to deal with the threat facing them. Far from the current problems declining they are clearly escalating - the only way to win this seems all out war on the drug infrastructure and traffickers/cartels/corruption within Mexico - and I dont mean your typical "war on drugs" nonsense - I mean actual war; the Americans should be equally concerned because sooner or later this is coming their way.
Drugs: If this is the misery that the drugs trade inflicts on those (however innocent or not those two guys in the video may be) who supply/get caught up in, Friday nights fun, then surely some form of legalisation is the way to go. People will do as they please whether there is legislation in place or not - however anyone thinking that they arent hurting someone, somewhere down the line, by hoovering a load of coke up their nose is very sorely mistaken, just watch a guy getting his head cut off with a chainsaw and see if your actions aren't harmless.
Sorry children and dinner duties are calling, i'll fill the rest in later.
D
Mr_annie_vxr said:
Having seen your blinkered view point whether I have credibility with you matters not.
So you declaring you have never used illegal drugs ever?
Are you declaring 70% of the population aren't allowed a say in the matter as they have taken an illegal substance at some point in their life?So you declaring you have never used illegal drugs ever?
Ayahuasca said:
Where I live the drug transport business used to be controlled by the Colombians, until they were scared away. Those were the good old days of innocence.
The Mexicans have taken it to a new level.
Now whenever a shipment goes missing for any reason (and an awful lot do), all those whose job it was to deliver it turn up executed. Royal Mail, take note.
Not long ago a parcel got washed up on the beach (happens here a lot). Some indians found it and buried it. The Mexicans came looking, staked down the indian family, wife, children, the lot, on the beach, chucked on petrol and a match and burned all but one alive. They then asked the remaining one (the father) to go and fetch their drugs.
Scary people.
These guys make the Einsatsgruppen look like pussies! The Mexicans have taken it to a new level.
Now whenever a shipment goes missing for any reason (and an awful lot do), all those whose job it was to deliver it turn up executed. Royal Mail, take note.
Not long ago a parcel got washed up on the beach (happens here a lot). Some indians found it and buried it. The Mexicans came looking, staked down the indian family, wife, children, the lot, on the beach, chucked on petrol and a match and burned all but one alive. They then asked the remaining one (the father) to go and fetch their drugs.
Scary people.
WeirdNeville said:
Some sensible stuff that makes an unwieldy post if I requote it
I see where you are coming from, but I think it falls down on two points.Firstly such a scheme overcomplicates it. I believe you can already get methadone on a similar basis for heroin addiction, but there's still plenty of illegal heroin about, and still people taking up illegal heroin use.
Secondly it misses how the market would change without prohibition. The costs of producing and importing it would plummet to close enough to zero. The massive margins would be squeezed, and that would still leave room for putting some standards in place.
I would say if we want to legalise it, just do it. It could be regulated and taxed in the same way as alcohol and tobacco are. Yes some people would take it too far as they do with alcohol, gambling or nearly any other foolish behaviour. However the massive money in the hands of criminals, and the horrific levels of violence that go with it would no longer be there.
Nor would the criminal network that goes hand in hand with taking drugs.
From my own experience, when I was about 16-17 and had a phase of experimenting with drugs, it was a pretty obvious link. You go and see the guy who sells dope, he asks if you want to try speed or cocaine, then his mate comes over with some stolen CDs he's selling cheap, and so it goes on.
No way am I watching that video.
Every time I read or hear about one of these drug related mass graves being discovered in Mexico I wonder who the victims are. I guess (with some assistance from this thread) they are:
1. Rival gang members.
2. Servants of the state (politicians, soldiers, police etc) and members of the public who dare take a stand against the gangs.
3. Members of the killing gang who transgress. Ayahuasca's post above about whole chains of people being killed when a package goes missing is illuminating and chilling at the same time. Imagine the horror of being in that situation. Someone you don't even know has stolen a package, but its you facing the mineshaft?
This raises two more questions:
1. I know many in Mexico live in abject poverty and the money in this is ridiculous, but knowing that lots of people get killed by their own people or rivals would make it seem an unattractive choice to me. But then again I guess I don't live in a shanty town with eight kids wanting to be fed.
2. What is it that makes Mexican gangs so much more brutal than others? Scary enough to discourage the Colombian gangs who, lets face it, aren't exactly the Women's Institute.
Every time I read or hear about one of these drug related mass graves being discovered in Mexico I wonder who the victims are. I guess (with some assistance from this thread) they are:
1. Rival gang members.
2. Servants of the state (politicians, soldiers, police etc) and members of the public who dare take a stand against the gangs.
3. Members of the killing gang who transgress. Ayahuasca's post above about whole chains of people being killed when a package goes missing is illuminating and chilling at the same time. Imagine the horror of being in that situation. Someone you don't even know has stolen a package, but its you facing the mineshaft?
This raises two more questions:
1. I know many in Mexico live in abject poverty and the money in this is ridiculous, but knowing that lots of people get killed by their own people or rivals would make it seem an unattractive choice to me. But then again I guess I don't live in a shanty town with eight kids wanting to be fed.
2. What is it that makes Mexican gangs so much more brutal than others? Scary enough to discourage the Colombian gangs who, lets face it, aren't exactly the Women's Institute.
Edited by BruceV8 on Sunday 25th September 23:00
AJS- said:
I would say if we want to legalise it, just do it. It could be regulated and taxed in the same way as alcohol and tobacco are. Yes some people would take it too far as they do with alcohol, gambling or nearly any other foolish behaviour. However the massive money in the hands of criminals, and the horrific levels of violence that go with it would no longer be there.
Nor would the criminal network that goes hand in hand with taking drugs.
I see where you're coming from, my fear is that Drug dealers with nouse will simply legitimise their revenue stream - call themselves 'Don Juans Friendly Opiate supplies INc.' And yet still use the profits to fund whatever other enterprises they have on the go, and to ensure that they retain power in whatever regime they operate. Back to square one.Nor would the criminal network that goes hand in hand with taking drugs.
Hey ho, no easy solutions in the Global Narcotics trade!
I just wish people could see how badly prohibition is failing, and had the chutzpah to speak out about it. Anyone who crows 'flog the addicts and send all the dealers to jail forever' has their head so far buried that they're never going to see the wider problems of the drugs trade.
WeirdNeville said:
I see where you're coming from, my fear is that Drug dealers with nouse will simply legitimise their revenue stream - call themselves 'Don Juans Friendly Opiate supplies INc.' And yet still use the profits to fund whatever other enterprises they have on the go, and to ensure that they retain power in whatever regime they operate. Back to square one.
Unfortunately I think that is a corner that we've backed ourselves into through prohibition. If we legalise now, thus saying that we don't have a problem with people taking drugs, then we're basically saying that they were not doing anything wrong in supplying the drugs in the first place. Makes sense to let them continue. If they continue to engage in other criminality then they would be prosecuted for it.My guess is that a fairly small number would go straight and set up legitimate businesses, but as the price fell then the serious organised criminals would lose interest and go into people smuggling or something else.
We would be getting into a very messy situation if we then started to say companies A, B and C cannot supply these drugs, companies X, Y and Z can. In some ways government controlled supply would answer that, but it could also make it worse. As with the Opium wars, or any number of examples from Latin America, the money and power involved is tempting for politicians and officials too.
AJS- said:
Jimbeaux said:
Our border states deal with this each and every day.
I must say, that would make me wonder what you're doing sending people over to Iraq and Afghanistan.Not that these places didn't need a bit of fixing too, but isn't it about time to step in Mexico?
Or am I being naive about the political/diplomatic situation between the US and Mexico?
Jimbeaux said:
The cooperation between us and them is pretty good. The same template worked in Colombia, so it is being applied to mexico now.
Really?http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2011/09/26/i...
Ok, I know if Soovy was American he'd watch Fox Nooz, but really holding Columbia up as an example of successful foreign policy is rather ambitious to say the least.
AJS- said:
Jimbeaux said:
The cooperation between us and them is pretty good. The same template worked in Colombia, so it is being applied to mexico now.
Really?http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2011/09/26/i...
Ok, I know if Soovy was American he'd watch Fox Nooz, but really holding Columbia up as an example of successful foreign policy is rather ambitious to say the least.
AJS- said:
Jimbeaux said:
The cooperation between us and them is pretty good. The same template worked in Colombia, so it is being applied to mexico now.
Really?http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2011/09/26/i...
Ok, I know if Soovy was American he'd watch Fox Nooz, but really holding Columbia up as an example of successful foreign policy is rather ambitious to say the least.
devonshiredave said:
Ayahuasca said:
Friday's toll: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX GRISLY
Despite the warning of "GRISLY" I can deal with seeing pictures of dead people however the top of that blog now has a video of two guys being decapitated one with a chainsaw and one with a knife. I hate to be an arbiter of whats reasonable to post but that is fking disgusting, would it be too much to suggest that link and quotes of it are removed please.Chilling stuff.
ApexJimi said:
I watched the video as far as the two guys talking went. I was intrigued at their relatively calm manner, so when the guy with the chainsaw appeared, I covered up that part of the video with my hand, and out of intrigue, watched the other guy's reaction - which looked like indifference. Right up to the the point where the guy with the knife was approaching him, he just looked at the guy quite indifferently. I stopped the video at that point.
Chilling stuff.
I didn't even realise, didn't have sound, guessed they were hostages or something, then the chainsaw appeared and the second it touch that poor sod (albeit probably deserved some sort of punishment?) on the neck, I stopped it. Horrific. Chilling.Chilling stuff.
How this sort of stuff goes on in the world is beyond me. Makes me want to buy an island off the coast of Scotland and isolate myself!
dirty boy said:
I didn't even realise, didn't have sound, guessed they were hostages or something, then the chainsaw appeared and the second it touch that poor sod (albeit probably deserved some sort of punishment?) on the neck, I stopped it. Horrific. Chilling.
How this sort of stuff goes on in the world is beyond me. Makes me want to buy an island off the coast of Scotland and isolate myself!
Have you not seen that documentary, The Wicker Man!How this sort of stuff goes on in the world is beyond me. Makes me want to buy an island off the coast of Scotland and isolate myself!
The two guys confessed to being drug dealers in the USA.
I didn't watch it as far as the chainsaw, don't need to see a real life 'Scarface' shower scene thanks.
I too was intrigued by their calmness - I guess they knew what was coming and were in a 'let's get it over with then' frame of mind. I saw a still of the end result and it looked like more than the guys head was sawn off, I hope afterwards.
Chilling and horrible.
I didn't watch it as far as the chainsaw, don't need to see a real life 'Scarface' shower scene thanks.
I too was intrigued by their calmness - I guess they knew what was coming and were in a 'let's get it over with then' frame of mind. I saw a still of the end result and it looked like more than the guys head was sawn off, I hope afterwards.
Chilling and horrible.
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