Discussion
goldblum said:
Surely you mean 'if you alleged you'd been raped'?
Another incredible case, the rapes are alleged to have occurred in 1977. Just how good a memory for detail would a 13 year old at the time of the incident have now - nearly 40 years later?
Can you remember the tune of "Wanna be in my gang"? Another incredible case, the rapes are alleged to have occurred in 1977. Just how good a memory for detail would a 13 year old at the time of the incident have now - nearly 40 years later?
If you can, you might just recall being raped by the bloke who sang it.
If you've ever had a conversation with a woman, you'll notice they're quite good at remembering stuff. (Incredible, I know, but there it is).
Mr Snap said:
goldblum said:
Surely you mean 'if you alleged you'd been raped'?
Another incredible case, the rapes are alleged to have occurred in 1977. Just how good a memory for detail would a 13 year old at the time of the incident have now - nearly 40 years later?
Can you remember the tune of "Wanna be in my gang"? Another incredible case, the rapes are alleged to have occurred in 1977. Just how good a memory for detail would a 13 year old at the time of the incident have now - nearly 40 years later?
If you can, you might just recall being raped by the bloke who sang it.
If you've ever had a conversation with a woman, you'll notice they're quite good at remembering stuff. (Incredible, I know, but there it is).
Edited by telecat on Friday 6th June 14:18
telecat said:
Mr Snap said:
goldblum said:
Surely you mean 'if you alleged you'd been raped'?
Another incredible case, the rapes are alleged to have occurred in 1977. Just how good a memory for detail would a 13 year old at the time of the incident have now - nearly 40 years later?
Can you remember the tune of "Wanna be in my gang"? Another incredible case, the rapes are alleged to have occurred in 1977. Just how good a memory for detail would a 13 year old at the time of the incident have now - nearly 40 years later?
If you can, you might just recall being raped by the bloke who sang it.
If you've ever had a conversation with a woman, you'll notice they're quite good at remembering stuff. (Incredible, I know, but there it is).
Edited by telecat on Friday 6th June 14:18
It does beggar belief how many victims are coming forward now, and it's easy to conclude that some of them may be on the compensation trail. However on the radio during the week, a woman in some authority or other was interviewed and asked this same question, and she said that of the 500 or so Savile victims, they were asked to recall and state certain facts around the incident(s), and that all declared 500 had been able to do so.
That said I am STILL struggling to comprehend how all 500 (Savile) sat on this for so long, notwithstanding all the tales of the miscreants being big & important and the victims not being believed - but not one, not one of them was able to find someone who believed them and was prepared to fight their corner? Very strange but apparently true.
That said I am STILL struggling to comprehend how all 500 (Savile) sat on this for so long, notwithstanding all the tales of the miscreants being big & important and the victims not being believed - but not one, not one of them was able to find someone who believed them and was prepared to fight their corner? Very strange but apparently true.
Interesting to hear what the people who can't believe that alleged victims can 'remember' after all this time have to say, and I must say that at first thought you do wonder. So I thought I'd test myself - try to think of something traumatic that happened when I was a kid and test what I could recall. There were a few options, but the Flixborough chemical plant disaster came to mind. I would be 8 at the time, and it was 5 miles from our house.
Interesting. - I thought about everything I could remember and then checked it against the HSE report
I remember exactly where I was when I heard the bang, and why I had gone there
I remember seeing the mushroom cloud, and which direction it was in - verifiable by maps
I remember what I was wearing, and what the weather was like.
I remember where my dog was, and what he did when the explosion happened.
I would have guessed that it was Early summer - I remember that feeling of elation at long days, and there was a rosemary bush but it wasn't in flower. It was 1st June.
I remember that it was a Saturday, (it was)
I remember that it was 4 pm-ish (4.53)
I remember my mum and my sister looking at the mushroom cloud and deciding to go up to the hospital - they were both nurses - my sis confirms
I don't remember my dad being there - turns out he was working away and i was left for a neighbour to keep an eye on me (sis confirms again)
I think that's quite remarkable for something that wasn't *that* traumatic - certainly not a patch on having some hairy old letch stick their fingers up your front bum. Yet so many details had fixed in my mind - that I knew the day of the week and approx time after 40 years really shocked me.
I suppose my conclusion from limited experimentation would be not to underestimate the human brain. In all life events you get honest people and chancers. Possibly a mistake to assume all the complainants are chancers.
Interesting. - I thought about everything I could remember and then checked it against the HSE report
I remember exactly where I was when I heard the bang, and why I had gone there
I remember seeing the mushroom cloud, and which direction it was in - verifiable by maps
I remember what I was wearing, and what the weather was like.
I remember where my dog was, and what he did when the explosion happened.
I would have guessed that it was Early summer - I remember that feeling of elation at long days, and there was a rosemary bush but it wasn't in flower. It was 1st June.
I remember that it was a Saturday, (it was)
I remember that it was 4 pm-ish (4.53)
I remember my mum and my sister looking at the mushroom cloud and deciding to go up to the hospital - they were both nurses - my sis confirms
I don't remember my dad being there - turns out he was working away and i was left for a neighbour to keep an eye on me (sis confirms again)
I think that's quite remarkable for something that wasn't *that* traumatic - certainly not a patch on having some hairy old letch stick their fingers up your front bum. Yet so many details had fixed in my mind - that I knew the day of the week and approx time after 40 years really shocked me.
I suppose my conclusion from limited experimentation would be not to underestimate the human brain. In all life events you get honest people and chancers. Possibly a mistake to assume all the complainants are chancers.
I can recall with graphic clarity each time I was abused, I can recall sounds, smells and words spoken, I can give you a period of time of over which this abuse occurred, I can tell you certain dates on which I was abused, due to there being other events at the time, but I am unable to put the abuse in to exact chronological order, I have no idea on which date I was beaten so badly I miscarried my baby boy at 23 weeks, but I can tell you that was brutally raped on 5th November 1997, I know this with certainty as it was after a family firework party and it resulted in the birth of my daughter.
It is 19 years since I was first abused, I have no idea what day of the week it was or month, but I can remember what my eldest daughter was wearing and I can recall the words I screamed, I can also recall many, many other random things that occurred that day.
The oddest of things can transport be back to some of those moments in time, from a sound to the way someone phrases something, even the way my youngest daughter looks at me, can send me back.
I would say most of the people I meet would have no idea about the horrors I've experienced, I don't believe I give it away, I look at photos of myself both then and now and can see what I'm hiding but I doubt others can.
It is 19 years since I was first abused, I have no idea what day of the week it was or month, but I can remember what my eldest daughter was wearing and I can recall the words I screamed, I can also recall many, many other random things that occurred that day.
The oddest of things can transport be back to some of those moments in time, from a sound to the way someone phrases something, even the way my youngest daughter looks at me, can send me back.
I would say most of the people I meet would have no idea about the horrors I've experienced, I don't believe I give it away, I look at photos of myself both then and now and can see what I'm hiding but I doubt others can.
Rude Girl said:
I think that's quite remarkable for something that wasn't *that* traumatic - certainly not a patch on having some hairy old letch stick their fingers up your front bum. Yet so many details had fixed in my mind - that I knew the day of the week and approx time after 40 years really shocked me.
It's an interesting thought experiment but all it proves is that there's one 'traumatic' event in your life that you have a lot of 'reliable' memories of. In fact, as it was the one that came to mind, it's no surprise you recalled a lot.What you don't know is how many traumatic events you're unable to recall.
CAPP0 said:
It does beggar belief how many victims are coming forward now, and it's easy to conclude that some of them may be on the compensation trail. However on the radio during the week, a woman in some authority or other was interviewed and asked this same question, and she said that of the 500 or so Savile victims, they were asked to recall and state certain facts around the incident(s), and that all declared 500 had been able to do so.
That said I am STILL struggling to comprehend how all 500 (Savile) sat on this for so long, notwithstanding all the tales of the miscreants being big & important and the victims not being believed - but not one, not one of them was able to find someone who believed them and was prepared to fight their corner? Very strange but apparently true.
Does it really beggar belief? You certainly don't seem to believe them now and, if you don't believe them now, what makes you think you would have believed them then? That said I am STILL struggling to comprehend how all 500 (Savile) sat on this for so long, notwithstanding all the tales of the miscreants being big & important and the victims not being believed - but not one, not one of them was able to find someone who believed them and was prepared to fight their corner? Very strange but apparently true.
Maybe a simpler, more logical, explanation is that they're telling the truth but, back then, knowing that they wouldn't have been believed, they made the perfectly logical decision of not putting themselves through more pain.
Try a quick thought experiment: Do you, as a grown man now, reckon you could face a court full of strange men (because back in the 70's most lawyers were men) and describe how you were anally raped by a bloke bigger and stronger than you? You know, someone equivalent in strength, say, to Mike Tyson. Grabbing you and making you do whatever he wanted. Treating you like a powerless rag doll. Now imagine going through that when you were 13. Then having to describe it to a court full of grown men in wigs and gowns when you were hardly old enough to understand what had happened to you.
Now imagine the cross examination: "You led him on didn't you?". "You've let other boys touch you like that, haven't you?". "When did you have your first period?" "When did you become sexually active?". "You wanted it and you led him on, didn't you?". And the questions aren't asked once, they're asked repeatedly in a variety of ways, intended to trip you up and embarrass you into making an error. Even if you're telling the truth it's daunting and frightening for an adult to stand up in court.
Perhaps the sheer number of victims now coming forward proves that the useless system failed them absolutely and that they may deserve compensation?
To be honest, I think you lack both sympathy and knowledge of the legal process back in the 60's and 70's. You've probably been watching too much Heartbeat and George Gently.
goldblum said:
Surely you mean 'if you alleged you'd been raped'?
Another incredible case, the rapes are alleged to have occurred in 1977. Just how good a memory for detail would a 13 year old at the time of the incident have now - nearly 40 years later?
Trust me. Certain memories will always be there no matter how much you try and forget. Another incredible case, the rapes are alleged to have occurred in 1977. Just how good a memory for detail would a 13 year old at the time of the incident have now - nearly 40 years later?
Seeker UK said:
Rude Girl said:
I think that's quite remarkable for something that wasn't *that* traumatic - certainly not a patch on having some hairy old letch stick their fingers up your front bum. Yet so many details had fixed in my mind - that I knew the day of the week and approx time after 40 years really shocked me.
It's an interesting thought experiment but all it proves is that there's one 'traumatic' event in your life that you have a lot of 'reliable' memories of. In fact, as it was the one that came to mind, it's no surprise you recalled a lot.What you don't know is how many traumatic events you're unable to recall.
t, eh? 
Edited for spelling
Edited by Rude Girl on Saturday 7th June 08:03
Tumbler said:
I can recall with graphic clarity each time I was abused, I can recall sounds, smells and words spoken, I can give you a period of time of over which this abuse occurred, I can tell you certain dates on which I was abused, due to there being other events at the time, but I am unable to put the abuse in to exact chronological order, I have no idea on which date I was beaten so badly I miscarried my baby boy at 23 weeks, but I can tell you that was brutally raped on 5th November 1997, I know this with certainty as it was after a family firework party and it resulted in the birth of my daughter.
It is 19 years since I was first abused, I have no idea what day of the week it was or month, but I can remember what my eldest daughter was wearing and I can recall the words I screamed, I can also recall many, many other random things that occurred that day.
The oddest of things can transport be back to some of those moments in time, from a sound to the way someone phrases something, even the way my youngest daughter looks at me, can send me back.
I would say most of the people I meet would have no idea about the horrors I've experienced, I don't believe I give it away, I look at photos of myself both then and now and can see what I'm hiding but I doubt others can.
Sounds like you went through hell Tumbler, thankfully, by the sounds of your post, you have been able to come to terms with this.It is 19 years since I was first abused, I have no idea what day of the week it was or month, but I can remember what my eldest daughter was wearing and I can recall the words I screamed, I can also recall many, many other random things that occurred that day.
The oddest of things can transport be back to some of those moments in time, from a sound to the way someone phrases something, even the way my youngest daughter looks at me, can send me back.
I would say most of the people I meet would have no idea about the horrors I've experienced, I don't believe I give it away, I look at photos of myself both then and now and can see what I'm hiding but I doubt others can.
As to Glitter, who cares if they have made the some s
t up, if it gets this sick piece of crap off the streets for a while and back behind bars its all good. Can Guarantee there are a lot more kids out there (and abroad) that have experienced abuse from this sad excuse for a human being and have still not came forward. Mr Snap said:
Does it really beggar belief? You certainly don't seem to believe them now and, if you don't believe them now, what makes you think you would have believed them then?
Maybe a simpler, more logical, explanation is that they're telling the truth but, back then, knowing that they wouldn't have been believed, they made the perfectly logical decision of not putting themselves through more pain.
Try a quick thought experiment: Do you, as a grown man now, reckon you could face a court full of strange men (because back in the 70's most lawyers were men) and describe how you were anally raped by a bloke bigger and stronger than you? You know, someone equivalent in strength, say, to Mike Tyson. Grabbing you and making you do whatever he wanted. Treating you like a powerless rag doll. Now imagine going through that when you were 13. Then having to describe it to a court full of grown men in wigs and gowns when you were hardly old enough to understand what had happened to you.
Now imagine the cross examination: "You led him on didn't you?". "You've let other boys touch you like that, haven't you?". "When did you have your first period?" "When did you become sexually active?". "You wanted it and you led him on, didn't you?". And the questions aren't asked once, they're asked repeatedly in a variety of ways, intended to trip you up and embarrass you into making an error. Even if you're telling the truth it's daunting and frightening for an adult to stand up in court.
Perhaps the sheer number of victims now coming forward proves that the useless system failed them absolutely and that they may deserve compensation?
To be honest, I think you lack both sympathy and knowledge of the legal process back in the 60's and 70's. You've probably been watching too much Heartbeat and George Gently.
One 18-year-old victim was grabbed one night as he walked through a park. The bloke raped her, buggered her and then stuck his dick down her throat. Despite ample DNA proving it was him the defence demanded an ID parade (law since changed to stop this further abuse of victims in such cases) in the hope that the pressure of seeing the offender again would be too much for the kid. But she went on the parade but collapsed when she saw him, being unable to move for seven minutes.Maybe a simpler, more logical, explanation is that they're telling the truth but, back then, knowing that they wouldn't have been believed, they made the perfectly logical decision of not putting themselves through more pain.
Try a quick thought experiment: Do you, as a grown man now, reckon you could face a court full of strange men (because back in the 70's most lawyers were men) and describe how you were anally raped by a bloke bigger and stronger than you? You know, someone equivalent in strength, say, to Mike Tyson. Grabbing you and making you do whatever he wanted. Treating you like a powerless rag doll. Now imagine going through that when you were 13. Then having to describe it to a court full of grown men in wigs and gowns when you were hardly old enough to understand what had happened to you.
Now imagine the cross examination: "You led him on didn't you?". "You've let other boys touch you like that, haven't you?". "When did you have your first period?" "When did you become sexually active?". "You wanted it and you led him on, didn't you?". And the questions aren't asked once, they're asked repeatedly in a variety of ways, intended to trip you up and embarrass you into making an error. Even if you're telling the truth it's daunting and frightening for an adult to stand up in court.
Perhaps the sheer number of victims now coming forward proves that the useless system failed them absolutely and that they may deserve compensation?
To be honest, I think you lack both sympathy and knowledge of the legal process back in the 60's and 70's. You've probably been watching too much Heartbeat and George Gently.
She was in the UK from a country in the EU so had no friends, relatives or loved ones with her, this being less than 36 hours after the quite horrible attack on her.
Whilst I was happy an ID had been made I was worried about the defence tactics (and quite rightly as it turned out) in the trial so asked this kid to continue with the parade, which she did.
The defence then, rather than plead, decided to demand the girl return to the UK, interrupting her recuperation. She, then 19, again proved herself and turned up in court. he asked for a screen to be put between the witness box and the offender.
There was a 90-minute legal argument as to whether this would, in some strange and twisted way, obstruct justice.
No wonder victims, struggling to come to terms with what happened to them, refuse to complain.
Whilst the court systems have, not before time, changed, taking some account of the rights and welfare of victims, what the victims have to go through immediately after being raped is an ordeal on its own.
It is just further abuse.
Derek Smith said:
What can one say? I - we - obviously wish you all the best. It was heart-rending reading.
I'd like to thank Tumbler and Rude Girl and for sharing their observations/experiences. I hope what they've said will give the doubters pause for thought. PH is often misogynist and reactionary, it could do with a lot more contributions from women.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff