The Duggan Gun?
Discussion
drainbrain said:
B'stard Child said:
drainbrain said:
heebeegeetee said:
I could not care less. If there is a gun in that car then a line has been crossed, their lives are in danger and rightly so.
Are you saying that known criminals known to be carrying guns should be exterminated by armed police? I think hee bee gee tee is just recommending shooting them - I'm kinda OK with that
B'stard Child said:
drainbrain said:
B'stard Child said:
drainbrain said:
heebeegeetee said:
I could not care less. If there is a gun in that car then a line has been crossed, their lives are in danger and rightly so.
Are you saying that known criminals known to be carrying guns should be exterminated by armed police? I think hee bee gee tee is just recommending shooting them - I'm kinda OK with that
drainbrain said:
B'stard Child said:
drainbrain said:
B'stard Child said:
drainbrain said:
heebeegeetee said:
I could not care less. If there is a gun in that car then a line has been crossed, their lives are in danger and rightly so.
Are you saying that known criminals known to be carrying guns should be exterminated by armed police? I think hee bee gee tee is just recommending shooting them - I'm kinda OK with that
Even heebee didn't suggest shooting them - he just said that if there was a gun in the car their lives were in danger - have you seen the recent accident statistics - car driving is no where near as safe as you thing it is...
And you went off on exterminating people
British humour - no-one gets it even the British
Oakey said:
The article is here, you'll love it, it's got cover ups and corruption and everything
http://www.spinwatch.org/index.php/issues/spying/i...
Some scope for serious Man Maths there. 'Well I keep getting home late as Carl 'Dread' Robinson keeps following me home from the police station so I have to keep taking detours. Of course if you let me have (insert automotive flavour of the month here) he wouldn't recognise the car and I'd get home sooner.'http://www.spinwatch.org/index.php/issues/spying/i...
Shame there isn't some system where the proceeds of crime motors couldn't be borrowed from time to time in that situation, throw would be police officer assassins off the scent for a while.
That a known felon is staking out a police station to kill a certain officer would seem quite good grounds for a transfer to another police station.
Previously my opinion was, live by the sword die by it. Regardless of where the gun was or wasn't armed police take enormous risks with their personal safety and should be given the benefit of the doubt.
However, at the risk of tin hattery it looks very likely that Duggan was set up to protect the gun supplier, who also appears to be a police informer. At the best they have been played at the worst its corruption.
However, at the risk of tin hattery it looks very likely that Duggan was set up to protect the gun supplier, who also appears to be a police informer. At the best they have been played at the worst its corruption.
stripy7 said:
Previously my opinion was, live by the sword die by it. Regardless of where the gun was or wasn't armed police take enormous risks with their personal safety and should be given the benefit of the doubt.
However, at the risk of tin hattery it looks very likely that Duggan was set up to protect the gun supplier, who also appears to be a police informer. At the best they have been played at the worst its corruption.
They can also take risks with their own as well as public safety by allowing these jobs to run on in order to give a better chance of securing convictions, when some of these jobs could be brought to a conclusion earlier and in more controlled conditions,However, at the risk of tin hattery it looks very likely that Duggan was set up to protect the gun supplier, who also appears to be a police informer. At the best they have been played at the worst its corruption.
La Liga said:
carinaman said:
Who tipped off Trident that Kevin Hutchinson-Foster was going to pass the gun to Duggan?
Intelligence sources. Very accurate ones as it turns out. Here's a light read if you want to learn about the matter: https://www.ipcc.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Docume...
It's more important for me to be informed about other matters, but if you give me a clue I'll make an effort to read the relevant bits about the reliable source this year.
stripy7 said:
However, at the risk of tin hattery it looks very likely that Duggan was set up to protect the gun supplier, who also appears to be a police informer. At the best they have been played at the worst its corruption.
What you write couldn't be much less likely. The police couldn't have acted much more precisely on the information. They information was he was going to collect a firearm from a specific person in a specific area. The placed him under surveillance based on this information, 'observed' him collect the firearm and then stopped him.
The gun supplier was Kevin-Foster Hutchinson (the chap convicted in Crown Court for supplying the weapon). There's almost no chance he'll be the source. The police aren't going to allow a source to have a firearm and supply it to someone else for the to likely commit a crime.
Also see the bottom sentence of this post.
Bigends said:
They can also take risks with their own as well as public safety by allowing these jobs to run on in order to give a better chance of securing convictions, when some of these jobs could be brought to a conclusion earlier and in more controlled conditions
On the flip side if you stop matters too early then the net harm is greater (especially how improbable weapon discharges are - 2 from 14,864 police firearms' operations in the year ending March 2014) as the most dangerous people in society don't get convicted and remain free to carry on doing harm. carinaman said:
A page reference or informant name would be useful please. I read about ZZ46 yesterday, but that wasn't the relevant part.
It's more important for me to be informed about other matters, but if you give me a clue I'll make an effort to read the relevant bits about the reliable source this year.
From pages 33 to 37 (that section also talks about how intelligence works) and from pages 447 to 449. It's more important for me to be informed about other matters, but if you give me a clue I'll make an effort to read the relevant bits about the reliable source this year.
A10 is a case worker who worked for the Serious and Organised Crime Agency and the primary intelligence source who was providing intelligence from June the same year.
The sources don't necessarily need to be human. They could be technical. It could be work from phones that SOCA were undertaking, for example. Whatever the source / sources, it appears to be well-developed and accurate.
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 7th December 08:25
carinaman said:
A page reference or informant name would be useful please. I read about ZZ46 yesterday, but that wasn't the relevant part.
It's more important for me to be informed about other matters, but if you give me a clue I'll make an effort to read the relevant bits about the reliable source this year.
There's a document out there, supposedly claimed a fake, that claims So Solid Crew founder Clint Ponton aka C1 as the informant that set Duggan up. It's more important for me to be informed about other matters, but if you give me a clue I'll make an effort to read the relevant bits about the reliable source this year.
La Liga said:
rom pages 33 to 37 (that section also talks about how intelligence works) and from pages 447 to 449.
A10 is a case worker who worked for the Serious and Organised Crime Agency.
The sources don't necessarily need to be human. They could be technical. It could be work from phones that SOCA were undertaking, for example.
Thank you. A10 is a case worker who worked for the Serious and Organised Crime Agency.
The sources don't necessarily need to be human. They could be technical. It could be work from phones that SOCA were undertaking, for example.
Oakey said:
carinaman said:
A page reference or informant name would be useful please. I read about ZZ46 yesterday, but that wasn't the relevant part.
It's more important for me to be informed about other matters, but if you give me a clue I'll make an effort to read the relevant bits about the reliable source this year.
There's a document out there, supposedly claimed a fake, that claims So Solid Crew founder Clint Ponton aka C1 as the informant that set Duggan up. It's more important for me to be informed about other matters, but if you give me a clue I'll make an effort to read the relevant bits about the reliable source this year.
drainbrain said:
Ah. Sorry. I thought you meant you were agreeing with heebeegeetee's recommendation that people who are in a car with a gun should be shot by police.
He didn't actually say that though did he ? heebeegeetee said:
I could not care less. If there is a gun in that car then a line has been crossed, their lives are in danger and rightly so.
Oakey said:
Yeah maybe, it seemed a bit far fetched but then I saw it again recently being hosted on a .gov website which I thought was odd.
Rivals / criminals can be sources and try to use the police for their own means e.g. get rid of the competition. Naturally such information is treated with caution and is best developed with corroboration. Sources are always protected and actions taken to minimise whom who would have provided the police with information. La Liga said:
stripy7 said:
However, at the risk of tin hattery it looks very likely that Duggan was set up to protect the gun supplier, who also appears to be a police informer. At the best they have been played at the worst its corruption.
What you write couldn't be much less likely. The police couldn't have acted much more precisely on the information. They information was he was going to collect a firearm from a specific person in a specific area. The placed him under surveillance based on this information, 'observed' him collect the firearm and then stopped him.
The gun supplier was Kevin-Foster Hutchinson (the chap convicted in Crown Court for supplying the weapon). There's almost no chance he'll be the source. The police aren't going to allow a source to have a firearm and supply it to someone else for the to likely commit a crime.
Also see the bottom sentence of this post.
Bigends said:
They can also take risks with their own as well as public safety by allowing these jobs to run on in order to give a better chance of securing convictions, when some of these jobs could be brought to a conclusion earlier and in more controlled conditions
On the flip side if you stop matters too early then the net harm is greater (especially how improbable weapon discharges are - 2 from 14,864 police firearms' operations in the year ending March 2014) as the most dangerous people in society don't get convicted and remain free to carry on doing harm. carinaman said:
A page reference or informant name would be useful please. I read about ZZ46 yesterday, but that wasn't the relevant part.
It's more important for me to be informed about other matters, but if you give me a clue I'll make an effort to read the relevant bits about the reliable source this year.
From pages 33 to 37 (that section also talks about how intelligence works) and from pages 447 to 449. It's more important for me to be informed about other matters, but if you give me a clue I'll make an effort to read the relevant bits about the reliable source this year.
A10 is a case worker who worked for the Serious and Organised Crime Agency and the primary intelligence source who was providing intelligence from June the same year.
The sources don't necessarily need to be human. They could be technical. It could be work from phones that SOCA were undertaking, for example. Whatever the source / sources, it appears to be well-developed and accurate.
Edited by La Liga on Wednesday 7th December 08:25
Corpulent Tosser said:
drainbrain said:
Ah. Sorry. I thought you meant you were agreeing with heebeegeetee's recommendation that people who are in a car with a gun should be shot by police.
He didn't actually say that though did he ? heebeegeetee said:
I could not care less. If there is a gun in that car then a line has been crossed, their lives are in danger and rightly so.
Bigends said:
Unless the source of the info in relation to the gun being handed over was the cabby then why couldn't it be the person actually passing the weapon over? How would anyone else have known that quickly in order to update the Police operation quick time
There are many possibilities. The 'trigger' intelligence was received at 17:20 on the 4th of August (just under an hour before he was shot) stating Duggan was going to collect a firearm from Vicarage Road in Leyton. I note the timings on the phone work shortly prior to A10 receiving the intelligence he disseminated to the Met. I'll let you draw your own potential inferences there.
It's pretty obvious when reading the report and A10's evidence he's not the source. The MPS had to develop the information to figure out who Kevin was, for example. They wouldn't need to do that if he was the source, would they? They also didn't have an address nor a phone number for him. There are so many gaps about him and the firearm (location, female storing it etc) that wouldn't be there if he was the source and being handled. Remember the source was giving this intelligence about collecting the firearm since June, too.
IPCC said:
A10's evidence is that it was the MPS who had identified the male associate being referred to in the intelligence as Mr HutchinsonFoster. The evidence of ZZ46 corroborates this. A10's evidence is that at no stage did he identify an address for the female who was believed to be storing the firearm and the best intelligence that SOCA had was that she probably lived in the Leyton area.
ZZ46, who had been tasked by ZZ17, developed the intelligence around a man known as "Kevin" and identified "Kevin" as Mr Kevin Hutchinson-Foster. She did this via the interrogation of MPS intelligence systems.
ZZ46, who had been tasked by ZZ17, developed the intelligence around a man known as "Kevin" and identified "Kevin" as Mr Kevin Hutchinson-Foster. She did this via the interrogation of MPS intelligence systems.
carinaman said:
La Liga said:
From pages 33 to 37 (that section also talks about how intelligence works) and from pages 447 to 449.
A10 is a case worker who worked for the Serious and Organised Crime Agency.
The sources don't necessarily need to be human. They could be technical. It could be work from phones that SOCA were undertaking, for example.
Thank you.A10 is a case worker who worked for the Serious and Organised Crime Agency.
The sources don't necessarily need to be human. They could be technical. It could be work from phones that SOCA were undertaking, for example.
carinaman said:
La Liga said:
rom pages 33 to 37 (that section also talks about how intelligence works) and from pages 447 to 449.
Thanks for the page numbers.Hardly unexpected to lose the inquest appeal: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-394288...
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