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Author Discussion

jshell

5,706 posts

85 months

[news] 
Monday 9th January 2012 quote quote all
Zaxxon said:
jshell said:
If any Westminster govt wanted us gone, we'd be gone. You have to wonder why... I do.

I believe it is not up to CMD to set a date for a vote that takes place in only Scotland. >shrug<
Not as many people want the Union broken up as Salmand thinks IMO. But only a vote would prove that. And as said by other posters it should not be a purely Scottish vote. It should be the UK.

It affects the UK not just Scotland.
As I said above, I don't think he cares. He promised a vote late in his term. He wins either way as he'll be seen as a politician that finally gave people what he promised. He loses, he still kept his promise. He wins, he gets more powers. And the Scottish people will have their say. Which, I don't think most give a shyte about anyways....

Johnnytheboy

9,476 posts

66 months

[news] 
Monday 9th January 2012 quote quote all
Blib said:
I agree with this. I've spent half a century hearing about a desire for Scottish independence. Give them a vote and be done with it. Personally, I believe that a small country would be very vulnerable in today's economic climate. Especially with its natural home, Euroland, in utter disarray.

But, I know nothing about anything. So, I don't care either way.
Any referendum should have a "shut up about it for twenty years afterwards" clause attached to it, whichever way it goes.

rev-erend

Original Poster:

18,157 posts

164 months

[news] 
Monday 9th January 2012 quote quote all
Murcielago_Boy said:
With an independent Scotland, won't we see the end of the Labour party as well?
Rather strangely .. the Tories need the SNP to take votes away from Labour.

Guam

19,336 posts

148 months

[news] 
Monday 9th January 2012 quote quote all
jshell said:
If any Westminster govt wanted us gone, we'd be gone. You have to wonder why... I do.

I believe it is not up to CMD to set a date for a vote that takes place in only Scotland. >shrug<
If that was the case then why does Westminister set the date for the UK General Elections <Scots MPs are elected from Scottish Constituancies after all>, yes Edinburgh sets the dates for the Scottish Elections, however this is a UK issue not just a Scottish issue.

Whether the vote takes place in Scotland or a similar one in Northern Ireland on NI leaving the UK and joining the Republic lets say, Westminster would call the shots not NI nor the Republic.

At the end of the day however, what odds does it make what the date, is other than it would drag the thing to close to the next General election.

Bigger picture time, if this is out of the way in 18 months and Scotland leaves, then the biggest losers would be the Labour party in Scotland smile

Fewer MPS from Scotland to intefere in England only issues smile

And the Scottish MPS in Westminster are exactly WHY this becomes a UK issue not just a Scottish one!

I see no downside to any of this btw.


Johnnytheboy

9,476 posts

66 months

[news] 
Monday 9th January 2012 quote quote all
rev-erend said:
Murcielago_Boy said:
With an independent Scotland, won't we see the end of the Labour party as well?
Rather strangely .. the Tories need the SNP to take votes away from Labour.
Only in Scotland though smile
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Guam

19,336 posts

148 months

[news] 
Monday 9th January 2012 quote quote all
Johnnytheboy said:
Any referendum should have a "shut up about it for twenty years afterwards" clause attached to it, whichever way it goes.
I go further its a one shot deal, in for good, out for good!

bobbylondonuk

1,791 posts

70 months

[news] 
Monday 9th January 2012 quote quote all
CMD is playing it well IMO.

Alex Salmond won the election on the back of a referendum idea. He now wants to mess about so he can get the vote to reflect a EURO style set up. Good play.

As far as the UK is concerned..that is not a good idea for the rest of us. So CMD is calling him out. you scots want a referendum? why wait till the end of another 2 years? have it now!

We all know that a referendum now will be a NO to independance...and there ends the story for ever! SNP done.

The pretext to this plan is that 'businesses are discussing how to make their investments in scotland and the longer this takes the more detrimental it is to scots...so lets get it done with now.' Alex will have some serious thinking to do to counter that argument...even if it is all made up.

The ball is in SNP's court. Game on!

confused_buyer

2,382 posts

61 months

[news] 
Monday 9th January 2012 quote quote all
I think it is fair to ask Scotland to either whatsit or get off the pot.

It makes it difficult for the rest of the UK to make long term strategic decisions when they don't know whether Scotland will be a foreign country or not in 5 years time.

For example, any long term investment in defence establishments can't really be made if in 5 years time it will all have to come south of the border and other UK wide agencies such as the tax centre in Cumbernauld etc.

I also suspect that, if Scotland is to go, Cameron would like them to have decided to go by the time of the next UK election.

MX7

7,860 posts

54 months

[news] 
Monday 9th January 2012 quote quote all
Zaxxon said:
Not as many peoplein Scotland and England want the Union broken up as Salmand thinks IMO. But only a vote would prove that. And as said by other posters it should not be a purely Scottish vote. It should be the UK.
I'm not convinced. It's about a country seeking independence. If that's what the majority of Scots want, let them have it.

I know it's slightly different, but should the UK have voted in the Australian Republic referendum, or the Jamaican one, whenever it is?

Guam

19,336 posts

148 months

[news] 
Monday 9th January 2012 quote quote all
MX7 said:
I'm not convinced. It's about a country seeking independence. If that's what the majority of Scots want, let them have it.

I know it's slightly different, but should the UK have voted in the Australian Republic referendum, or the Jamaican one, whenever it is?
They arent part of the Union though, they are members of the commonwealth, so its a moot point.

And only the Scots will get the vote on this anyhow I reckon.

MX7

7,860 posts

54 months

[news] 
Monday 9th January 2012 quote quote all
Guam said:
They arent part of the Union though, they are members of the commonwealth, so its a moot point.
As I said, there are differences.

So what happens if Scotland holds a referendum, has 100% turnout, 3,800,000, all voting 'Yes'. England has a much lower turnout by percent, but 3,800,001 vote 'No'. I'm sure that Syria would be delighted to have some of the attention taken away from them!

Guam

19,336 posts

148 months

[news] 
Monday 9th January 2012 quote quote all
MX7 said:
As I said, there are differences.

So what happens if Scotland holds a referendum, has 100% turnout, 3,800,000, all voting 'Yes'. England has a much lower turnout by percent, but 3,800,001 vote 'No'. I'm sure that Syria would be delighted to have some of the attention taken away from them!
Moot point, England wont be voting I guarantee it, we wont want to be seen to stacking the deck imho.

thinfourth2

28,592 posts

84 months

[news] 
Monday 9th January 2012 quote quote all
Johnnytheboy said:
Any referendum should have a "shut up about it for twenty years afterwards" clause attached to it, whichever way it goes.
Only if the english stop blaming scotland for

1 Labour winning general elections despite the majority is greater then the number of MPs from scotland
2 Gordon brown
3 The banking crash
4 Every single unemployed person in the UK
5 Anything we can blame the welsh for
6 The english based media getting bored and rolling out a story about scotland

cocopop

1,070 posts

85 months

[news] 
Monday 9th January 2012 quote quote all
What about Scot's living in England and vice versa. If there was a 'yes' vote, what would be the implications?

Guam

19,336 posts

148 months

[news] 
Monday 9th January 2012 quote quote all
cocopop said:
What about Scot's living in England and vice versa. If there was a 'yes' vote, what would be the implications?
They become Foreign nationals as long as Scotland signed the EU treaties then they <both ways> would be treat like any other EU nationals. If they didnt then its Visa time smile

I assume that both countries would issue automatic right of residency and work permits to those already in Situ both sides of the border.

Caulkhead

4,938 posts

37 months

[news] 
Monday 9th January 2012 quote quote all
Guam said:
cocopop said:
What about Scot's living in England and vice versa. If there was a 'yes' vote, what would be the implications?
They become Foreign nationals as long as Scotland signed the EU treaties then they <both ways> would be treat like any other EU nationals. If they didnt then its Visa time smile

I assume that both countries would issue automatic right of residency and work permits to those already in Situ both sides of the border.
If a newly independent Scotland decides to join the Schengen border agreement, we'll then have to build a huge wall along the border complete with passport checkpoints and customs.

Guam

19,336 posts

148 months

[news] 
Monday 9th January 2012 quote quote all
Caulkhead said:
If a newly independent Scotland decides to join the Schengen border agreement, we'll then have to build a huge wall along the border complete with passport checkpoints and customs.
Nah we only need to repair the existing one smile

We can make everything North of Hadrians Wall a free fire zone smile

Derek Smith

18,912 posts

128 months

[news] 
Monday 9th January 2012 quote quote all
Will ex-pat Scots get the vote? From my experience, the Sctos that have moved around a bit, at least in England/Wales, tend not to want to leave the Union. For the last vote a Scottish mate reckoned that those who voted for it were voting for a theme park.

The problem for Salmod is that if the vote goes against him then there is little point in his being. His main plank is the vote. He does pose a lot with the 'stand up to Westminster' rhetoric but I can't see that being enough to keep the party in being.

The problem for everyone else is that there is no one else. Labour, with an expose about corruption and graft coming out every week, are hardly the party to inspire. Lib/Dems are losing support. Is there any other party?

The hype of Scottish independence has held Scotland back for years. It needs resolving and asap is good. There will be those who are determined to go that way regardless of the benefits/costs. In 18 months Europe will still be in the mire and England/Wales might well be on the up. It's a risk Salmond will have to take.

There's been this promise of joining the Scandinavians. I would suggest England has more in common with them.

I'm very pro Union. When Scotland and England worked together it benefited both countries, Scotland most. It flowered. But England benefitted immensely as well. Together we dominated a massive proportion of the world. Squabbling amongst ourselves helps neither of us and i fear that is precisely what we will do if Scotland goes its own way.

It could well be the precursor to England leaving the EU. We would want to renegotiate our terms, having lost the oil, and Germany/France would not want that. I would assume Scotland would become a net contributor to the coffers and I don't see that helping them in any way.

I can't see independence being of any benefit to either country. Scotland is very divided and I can't see this being resolved by independence. The country would lurch to the left as well, which won't be of any help. If they do get the vote then the SNP loses its major power base. England/Wales would move right a bit and this might well drag Scottish businesses a few miles south and over the border.

The Scots have had a massive influence on Parliament, more so than in proportion to their electorate.

MX7

7,860 posts

54 months

[news] 
Monday 9th January 2012 quote quote all
Guam said:
Moot point, England wont be voting I guarantee it, we wont want to be seen to stacking the deck imho.
That was an answer to Zaxxon.

Caulkhead

4,938 posts

37 months

[news] 
Monday 9th January 2012 quote quote all
thinfourth2 said:
1 Labour winning general elections despite the majority is greater then the number of MPs from scotland
You're only not to blame if the UK labour majority is more than twice the number of Scottish labour MP's as unlike England, none of you vote Tory to even up the number of labour MP's you spawn.

thinfourth2 said:
2 Gordon brown
Sorry, you're going to have to put your hands up to old sad-sack.

thinfourth2 said:
3 The banking crash
Fair enough, as long as you admit that if it had happened after Scottish independence, you'd now be living in a cardboard box waiting for an Oxfam food drop.

thinfourth2 said:
4 Every single unemployed person in the UK
No-one blames you for all of them, it's just there's always an unemployed scotsman with a can of super on every train to remind us of your input.

thinfourth2 said:
5 Anything we can blame the welsh for
How can you blame the Welsh for anything? they're like a mini Scotland but with an actual langauge of their own. The Scots positively aspire to be Welsh!

thinfourth2 said:
6 The english based media getting bored and rolling out a story about scotland
Read any Scottish tabloids lately? biggrin

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