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doogz
19,263 posts
57 months
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ViperPict said: Wombat3 said: ViperPict said: Wombat3 said: Sheets Tabuer said: ViperPict said: Current government policy but not necessarily the 'will' of the government... What's the difference? There's a difference. Not all members of the current Gov't (or opposition) would be pro - European. Might even be tha overall, in a free vote in the house it would vote agin it. Then again, post independence if Scottish Labour were in charge in Scotland the same thing will probably be the case in respect of the Union!  I have a feeling that if Scotland becomes independent that no-one will be asking to reform the Union... Well, no-one from the from the south side of the border anyway !  And I doubt from the north. It would be unprecedented. Unprecedented. Except that it's happened before.
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Dixie68
3,081 posts
57 months
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thinfourth2 said: ViperPict said: Wombat3 said: ViperPict said: And I doubt from the north. It would be unprecedented. Give it 10 years and a bit of serious bankruptcy & we will see on that.  There are going to be the thick end of 2M Scots who really f  king hate where they will be - and no, they won;t just shut up either I shouldn't think. The opposition to Independence will rumble on for years & every time somethng goes wrong it will be "told you so".... Things will not be all sweetness & light & unity. Not a snowball's chance in hell of that. History does not back up your opinion unfortunately... And it is only an opinion, after all... Would this be the same history that shows the vast majority of scottish politicians being left wing or is it a different history But you're forgetting the secret party that is going to suddenly spring into action in the event of independence, banishing the nasty left-wingers
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ViperPict
8,596 posts
107 months
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doogz said: ViperPict said: Wombat3 said: ViperPict said: Wombat3 said: Sheets Tabuer said: ViperPict said: Current government policy but not necessarily the 'will' of the government... What's the difference? There's a difference. Not all members of the current Gov't (or opposition) would be pro - European. Might even be tha overall, in a free vote in the house it would vote agin it. Then again, post independence if Scottish Labour were in charge in Scotland the same thing will probably be the case in respect of the Union! I have a feeling that if Scotland becomes independent that no-one will be asking to reform the Union... Well, no-one from the from the south side of the border anyway ! And I doubt from the north. It would be unprecedented. Unprecedented. Except that it's happened before. Of all the countries that have become independent in living memory, how many have asked to rejoin the country they left?
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BliarOut
53,692 posts
109 months
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ViperPict said: doogz said: ViperPict said: Wombat3 said: ViperPict said: Wombat3 said: Sheets Tabuer said: ViperPict said: Current government policy but not necessarily the 'will' of the government... What's the difference? There's a difference. Not all members of the current Gov't (or opposition) would be pro - European. Might even be tha overall, in a free vote in the house it would vote agin it. Then again, post independence if Scottish Labour were in charge in Scotland the same thing will probably be the case in respect of the Union! I have a feeling that if Scotland becomes independent that no-one will be asking to reform the Union... Well, no-one from the from the south side of the border anyway ! And I doubt from the north. It would be unprecedented. Unprecedented. Except that it's happened before. Of all the countries that have become independent in living memory, how many have asked to rejoin the country they left? Your starter for ten.... Transkei, Venda, Bophuthatswana, and Ciskei. HTH.
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AstonZagato
3,271 posts
80 months
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ViperPict said: History does not back up your opinion unfortunately... [cough]Darien Scheme[/cough]
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ViperPict
8,596 posts
107 months
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AstonZagato said: ViperPict said: History does not back up your opinion unfortunately... [cough]Darien Scheme[/cough] Don't go there. You might evoke some anti-English comments from certain quarters...
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doogz
19,263 posts
57 months
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ViperPict said: Of all the countries that have become independent in living memory, how many have asked to rejoin the country they left? Living memory, that's a nice caveat you've just added. Scotland never used to be part of the union. Then it joined. But if it left, it would never ask rejoin, that would be unprecedented. Apart from the last time it happened...
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ViperPict
8,596 posts
107 months
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BliarOut said: ViperPict said: doogz said: ViperPict said: Wombat3 said: ViperPict said: Wombat3 said: Sheets Tabuer said: ViperPict said: Current government policy but not necessarily the 'will' of the government... What's the difference? There's a difference. Not all members of the current Gov't (or opposition) would be pro - European. Might even be tha overall, in a free vote in the house it would vote agin it. Then again, post independence if Scottish Labour were in charge in Scotland the same thing will probably be the case in respect of the Union! I have a feeling that if Scotland becomes independent that no-one will be asking to reform the Union... Well, no-one from the from the south side of the border anyway ! And I doubt from the north. It would be unprecedented. Unprecedented. Except that it's happened before. Of all the countries that have become independent in living memory, how many have asked to rejoin the country they left? Your starter for ten.... Transkei, Venda, Bophuthatswana, and Ciskei. HTH. I think you'll find those countries did not rejoin the country they seceded from...
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WhereamI
6,410 posts
87 months
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ViperPict said: Of all the countries that have become independent in living memory, how many have asked to rejoin the country they left? Name me a country that is a historical precedent for this. Of all the countries that have become independent the majority are former colonies or dependencies, that includes the former Eastern Bloc, most African countries etc. They are quite different to the Scottish situation. The most recent equivalent is South Sudan which became independent in 2011, but the majority in favour there was massive with over 98% in favour, that's not going to happen in Scotland. Where else is there? Sure, there was the former Yugoslavia but that was a break up coming out of war and we aren't doing that here, at least not yet. Is there anywhere else where the citizens of a country have voted to take their part of that country and become independent?
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BliarOut
53,692 posts
109 months
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ViperPict said: BliarOut said: ViperPict said: doogz said: ViperPict said: Wombat3 said: ViperPict said: Wombat3 said: Sheets Tabuer said: ViperPict said: Current government policy but not necessarily the 'will' of the government... What's the difference? There's a difference. Not all members of the current Gov't (or opposition) would be pro - European. Might even be tha overall, in a free vote in the house it would vote agin it. Then again, post independence if Scottish Labour were in charge in Scotland the same thing will probably be the case in respect of the Union! I have a feeling that if Scotland becomes independent that no-one will be asking to reform the Union... Well, no-one from the from the south side of the border anyway ! And I doubt from the north. It would be unprecedented. Unprecedented. Except that it's happened before. Of all the countries that have become independent in living memory, how many have asked to rejoin the country they left? Your starter for ten.... Transkei, Venda, Bophuthatswana, and Ciskei. HTH. I think you'll find those countries did not rejoin the country they seceded from... Nope, despite your very narrow caveat those four countries left and rejoined SA. Every day is a school day...
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ViperPict
8,596 posts
107 months
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BliarOut said: ViperPict said: BliarOut said: ViperPict said: doogz said: ViperPict said: Wombat3 said: ViperPict said: Wombat3 said: Sheets Tabuer said: ViperPict said: Current government policy but not necessarily the 'will' of the government... What's the difference? There's a difference. Not all members of the current Gov't (or opposition) would be pro - European. Might even be tha overall, in a free vote in the house it would vote agin it. Then again, post independence if Scottish Labour were in charge in Scotland the same thing will probably be the case in respect of the Union! I have a feeling that if Scotland becomes independent that no-one will be asking to reform the Union... Well, no-one from the from the south side of the border anyway ! And I doubt from the north. It would be unprecedented. Unprecedented. Except that it's happened before. Of all the countries that have become independent in living memory, how many have asked to rejoin the country they left? Your starter for ten.... Transkei, Venda, Bophuthatswana, and Ciskei. HTH. I think you'll find those countries did not rejoin the country they seceded from... Nope, despite your very narrow caveat those four countries left and rejoined SA. Every day is a school day... South Africa effectively became a new country in 1994. They did not rejoin the country that they left.
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WhereamI
6,410 posts
87 months
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ViperPict said: South Africa effectively became a new country in 1994. They did not rejoin the country that they left. No it didn't, it had a change of government in 1994 that's all. A better argument would be that they didn't leave in the first place since no other country recognised them, also there was little in the way of democracy going on. Lots of reasons why there is no real parallel with Scotland but none of them are the fact that South Africa became a different country, because it didn't.
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Caulkhead
4,938 posts
27 months
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ViperPict said: Of all the countries that have become independent in living memory, how many have asked to rejoin the country they left? Surely the more salient question is, 'Of all the countries that have become independent in living memory having voluntarily joined in union with another country for 300 years due to being broke and needing bailing out financially after a very badly planned and executed foreign adventure, how many have asked to rejoin the country they left? I'm gonna start on a pretty safe 'zero'.
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ViperPict
8,596 posts
107 months
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Caulkhead said: ViperPict said: Of all the countries that have become independent in living memory, how many have asked to rejoin the country they left? Surely the more salient question is, 'Of all the countries that have become independent in living memory having voluntarily joined in union with another country for 300 years due to being broke and needing bailing out financially after a very badly planned and executed foreign adventure, how many have asked to rejoin the country they left? I'm gonna start on a pretty safe 'zero'. The people of Scotland did NOT volunteer to join the Union - FAR from it. If there had been a referendum at that time, the United Kingdom would not exist now. And read into the Darien Scheme more and see how the English goverment made sure that it failed... This whole 300 years of Union is built on lies, deceit and corruption.
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mcdjl
1,637 posts
65 months
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ViperPict said: The people of Scotland did NOT volunteer to join the Union - FAR from it. If there had been a referendum at that time, the United Kingdom would not exist now.
And read into the Darien Scheme more and see how the English goverment made sure that it failed...
This whole 300 years of Union is built on lies, deceit and corruption. Swift interpretation: Scotland wanted to play on the world stage. The rest of the world weren't keen on this. Scotland lost the big boys game and was forced to come cap in hand to England. Granted a trite analysis but would you agree broadly accurate? If not, please provide your own, similarly brief analysis.
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Sheets Tabuer
12,144 posts
85 months
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mcdjl said: Swift interpretation: Scotland wanted to play on the world stage. The rest of the world weren't keen on this. Scotland lost the big boys game and was forced to come cap in hand to England. Granted a trite analysis but would you agree broadly accurate? If not, please provide your own, similarly brief analysis. Whatever it was it demonstrates an unprecedented shift in Scottish politics* * shamelessly stolen from the VP book of thread replies
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ViperPict
8,596 posts
107 months
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mcdjl said: ViperPict said: The people of Scotland did NOT volunteer to join the Union - FAR from it. If there had been a referendum at that time, the United Kingdom would not exist now.
And read into the Darien Scheme more and see how the English goverment made sure that it failed...
This whole 300 years of Union is built on lies, deceit and corruption. Swift interpretation: Scotland wanted to play on the world stage. The rest of the world weren't keen on this. Scotland lost the big boys game and was forced to come cap in hand to England. Granted a trite analysis but would you agree broadly accurate? If not, please provide your own, similarly brief analysis. Scotland wanted to play on world stage - CHECK The rest of the world weren't keen on this - Spain and England were not keen on this Scotland lost the big boys game and was forced to come cap in hand to England - not entirely accurate. England renaged on their commitment to provide naval protection to the colony from Spain - that and disease were the main reasons it failed. From the outset of the scheme, England were lobbying powerful and currupt Scots to organise a 'get out' situation. Have you heard the phrase 'A Parcel O' Rogues' from the Burns poem? Totally and utterly corrupt. The basis of the United Kingdom is corruption, deceit and lies.
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mcdjl
1,637 posts
65 months
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ViperPict said: Scotland wanted to play on world stage
- CHECK
The rest of the world weren't keen on this
- Spain and England were not keen on this
Scotland lost the big boys game and was forced to come cap in hand to England
- not entirely accurate. England renaged on their commitment to provide naval protection to the colony from Spain - that and disease were the main reasons it failed. From the outset of the scheme, England were lobbying powerful and currupt Scots to organise a 'get out' situation. Have you heard the phrase 'A Parcel O' Rogues' from the Burns poem? Totally and utterly corrupt.
The basis of the United Kingdom is corruption, deceit and lies. nest question: 300 years ago who was Engalnds biggest trading partner? I'll accept a guess.
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thinfourth2
23,950 posts
74 months
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ViperPict said: The basis of the United Kingdom is corruption, deceit and lies. okay I'll conceed Maybe you are right and scotland will be fine post indpendance Lets face it our politicians fit the mould that made the UK a world leader
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doogz
19,263 posts
57 months
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So we're quoting lines from poetry as evidence now?
Super...
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