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ViperPict
8,424 posts
106 months
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thinfourth2 said: WhereamI said: ViperPict said: Edinburger said: Stevenj214 said: Seems about right to me. This could be a massive opportunity for politicians from all sides to reinvent themselves. The refersndum choices are 'same old' v 'what if'. At last, some balanced views!  There's nothing balanced about that, it's just you've finally met the one person on PH who agrees with you. No I agree also it is also a massive opportunity for politicians to reinvent themselves Sadly they will see it a massive opportunity to make themselves richer and more powerful No matter which party is in control, politicians will be politicians...
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thinfourth2
23,537 posts
73 months
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ViperPict said: No matter which party is in control, politicians will be politicians... So what on earth makes you think that they will be any better in an independent scotland? As other then blind hope i don't see the slightest chance of them being any better After seeing the control freakery coming from holyrood I think they will be far worse. At least while being tied to England they are slightly tempered by the tory voters down south who aren't quite as control freaks
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Edinburger
2,327 posts
37 months
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thinfourth2 said: So what on earth makes you think that they will be any better in an independent scotland?
As other then blind hope i don't see the slightest chance of them being any better
After seeing the control freakery coming from holyrood I think they will be far worse.
At least while being tied to England they are slightly tempered by the tory voters down south who aren't quite as control freaks
Because we are a country well known for turning our back on opportunities? Scots never challenge convention? Because we're just not capable? Really???
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ViperPict
8,424 posts
106 months
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thinfourth2 said: ViperPict said: No matter which party is in control, politicians will be politicians... So what on earth makes you think that they will be any better in an independent scotland? As other then blind hope i don't see the slightest chance of them being any better After seeing the control freakery coming from holyrood I think they will be far worse. At least while being tied to England they are slightly tempered by the tory voters down south who aren't quite as control freaks Politicians being politicians is a given. But I'd rather have politicians who only have Scotland to consider running Scotland than ones who only consider Scotland as an after thought (and very much biasing their considerations on the south-east of England).
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ViperPict
8,424 posts
106 months
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TheHeretic said: Uh huh... It is not a f  king deterministic viewpoint! f k it, it's like talking to a 3 year old who has a crayon up his nose. When YOU make statements about a post independence Scotland, just remind those about you at the time that you will do your damnedest not to answer for as long as possible. Maybe then they can just ignore you. I explained to you clearly how I based my views on post-independent Scotland. I have never made detailed predictions of what it'll be like, just general ones. Because that's all you can do due to the stochastic nature of things. But by being 'general', you can put some quite tight confidence limits on those predictions!
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TheHeretic
67,896 posts
124 months
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ViperPict said: I explained to you clearly how I based my views on post-independent Scotland. I have never made detailed predictions of what it'll be like, just general ones. Because that's all you can do due to the stochastic nature of things. But by being 'general', you can put some quite tight confidence limits on those predictions! You've been asked the same question not just by me, bit by others, many times, over and over, and you still failed to answer. This time you merely tried to impress with your philosophical vocabulary, and it didn't work, I'm afraid. How you manage to over complicate what should be easily explainable as your opinion, is anyone's guess. You haven't made a detailed prediction of anything in this thread, and your 'general' ones are equally as vague.
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Wombat3
5,137 posts
75 months
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TheHeretic said: ViperPict said: I explained to you clearly how I based my views on post-independent Scotland. I have never made detailed predictions of what it'll be like, just general ones. Because that's all you can do due to the stochastic nature of things. But by being 'general', you can put some quite tight confidence limits on those predictions! You've been asked the same question not just by me, bit by others, many times, over and over, and you still failed to answer. This time you merely tried to impress with your philosophical vocabulary, and it didn't work, I'm afraid. How you manage to over complicate what should be easily explainable as your opinion, is anyone's guess. You haven't made a detailed prediction of anything in this thread, and your 'general' ones are equally as vague. You have to hand it to him, given the length of this thread the only logical conclusion is that VP is in fact quite probably one of the most succesful internet trols ever seen!
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ViperPict
8,424 posts
106 months
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TheHeretic said: ViperPict said: I explained to you clearly how I based my views on post-independent Scotland. I have never made detailed predictions of what it'll be like, just general ones. Because that's all you can do due to the stochastic nature of things. But by being 'general', you can put some quite tight confidence limits on those predictions! You've been asked the same question not just by me, bit by others, many times, over and over, and you still failed to answer. This time you merely tried to impress with your philosophical vocabulary, and it didn't work, I'm afraid. How you manage to over complicate what should be easily explainable as your opinion, is anyone's guess. You haven't made a detailed prediction of anything in this thread, and your 'general' ones are equally as vague. To be clear, which question have I been asked 'many times, over and over'? Failed to impress with the scientific philosophy only because you fundamentally don't understand the very foundation of science!
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TheHeretic
67,896 posts
124 months
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ViperPict said: To be clear, which question have I been asked 'many times, over and over'?
Failed to impress with the scientific philosophy only because you fundamentally don't understand the very foundation of science! The same question you had been asked for what seems like weeks. Why do you think there will be a swing to the right in Scotland post-independence? It is this question, and the responses to your posts that the whole 'secret party' thing came about, as historically, Scotland has been left leaning since the 60's. I am amazed you need to ask what the question was... I've asked you it several times whilst you have been attempting to muddy the water, and pretend you don't need to answer because of various philosophical terms.
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Mojocvh
12,694 posts
131 months
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TheHeretic said: tartan weasel. Actually, I have copyright over that description of VP. 
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TheHeretic
67,896 posts
124 months
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Mojocvh said: Actually, I have copyright over that description of VP. Money is in the post. 
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ViperPict
8,424 posts
106 months
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TheHeretic said: ViperPict said: To be clear, which question have I been asked 'many times, over and over'?
Failed to impress with the scientific philosophy only because you fundamentally don't understand the very foundation of science! The same question you had been asked for what seems like weeks. Why do you think there will be a swing to the right in Scotland post-independence? It is this question, and the responses to your posts that the whole 'secret party' thing came about, as historically, Scotland has been left leaning since the 60's. I am amazed you need to ask what the question was... I've asked you it several times whilst you have been attempting to muddy the water, and pretend you don't need to answer because of various philosophical terms. I answered this above!!! That is why I need to ask the question. I have answered it in the way that I view these things, that post-independence, the political landscape in Scotland will change and, whatever transpires from that, there will be a right-of-centre party. What you're not getting (and this is where your deterministic view is blinkering you) is that you don't need hard evidence to back that up (that is the deterministic part of it). Only that self-organisation will produce a range of political parties that will evolve to accommodate the requirements of the electorate and reflecting the economic/ social/ cultural issues at that time. This will inevitably require a right-of-centre party which, if not just a re-branding, will almost certainly be more popular than the current Scottish conservatives (who have a very negative inertia in Scotland, as we all know).
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TheHeretic
67,896 posts
124 months
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ViperPict said: I answered this above!!! That is why I need to ask the question. I have answered it in the way that I view these things, that post-independence, the political landscape in Scotland will change and, whatever transpires from that, there will be a right-of-centre party. What you're not getting (and this is where your deterministic view is blinkering you) is that you don't need hard evidence to back that up (that is the deterministic part of it). Only that self-organisation will produce a range of political parties that will evolve to accommodate the requirements of the electorate and reflecting the economic/ social/ cultural issues at that time. This will inevitably require a right-of-centre party which, if not just a re-branding, will almost certainly be more popular than the current Scottish conservatives (who have a very negative inertia in Scotland, as we all know). I know you answered it above! It took you long enough, hence by bewilderment at why it took you so bloody long to do so, especially as it has been asked of you for some time now, by many people. My annoyance at ou was simply because you were attempting to weasel your way out of answering it. There may well be a right of center, however I'm not sure any of your explaining has told us why that would be people's choice after independence. Recall you have said on several occasions, (and other will back me up here I am sure), that Scotland will swing to the right post independence. You keep accusing me of being deterministic. Again, I have not set out what I think will happen post-independence, simply asking why you think there will be a fundamental swing to the right. That is not a deterministic viewpoint, it is simple questioning how you get to that view. There may well be a variety of parties, but that does not answer as to you being convinced the electorate will swing to the right. That has yet to be answered. I still think your attempt to muddy things with your philosophical ramblings is an attempt as distraction. I'm still not sure why you keep saying them. In fact, I'd like you to explain what I have said in questioning you that makes you think I am deterministic.
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ViperPict
8,424 posts
106 months
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TheHeretic said: ViperPict said: I answered this above!!! That is why I need to ask the question. I have answered it in the way that I view these things, that post-independence, the political landscape in Scotland will change and, whatever transpires from that, there will be a right-of-centre party. What you're not getting (and this is where your deterministic view is blinkering you) is that you don't need hard evidence to back that up (that is the deterministic part of it). Only that self-organisation will produce a range of political parties that will evolve to accommodate the requirements of the electorate and reflecting the economic/ social/ cultural issues at that time. This will inevitably require a right-of-centre party which, if not just a re-branding, will almost certainly be more popular than the current Scottish conservatives (who have a very negative inertia in Scotland, as we all know). I know you answered it above! It took you long enough, hence by bewilderment at why it took you so bloody long to do so, especially as it has been asked of you for some time now, by many people. My annoyance at ou was simply because you were attempting to weasel your way out of answering it. There may well be a right of center, however I'm not sure any of your explaining has told us why that would be people's choice after independence. Recall you have said on several occasions, (and other will back me up here I am sure), that Scotland will swing to the right post independence. You keep accusing me of being deterministic. Again, I have not set out what I think will happen post-independence, simply asking why you think there will be a fundamental swing to the right. That is not a deterministic viewpoint, it is simple questioning how you get to that view. There may well be a variety of parties, but that does not answer as to you being convinced the electorate will swing to the right. That has yet to be answered. I still think your attempt to muddy things with your philosophical ramblings is an attempt as distraction. I'm still not sure why you keep saying them. In fact, I'd like you to explain what I have said in questioning you that makes you think I am deterministic. The deterministic part is you demanding that I explain things in a deterministic way! Asking for specific indicators of why Scotland will be a certain way post-independence when, fundamentally, my approach to the issue looks at things in a more stochastic way. That is what I'm saying. And I think that the massive impact that the current economic climate is having on the daily lives of most of the Scottish electorate will be a very important variable in who they vote for post imdependence. Those two factors (being a new independent country and the unprecendented economic situation of the moment) will inevitably change politics in Scotland. If I had to make a decision on the direction on that change, yes, I would have to say it would be slightly to the right.
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TheHeretic
67,896 posts
124 months
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ViperPict said: The deterministic part is you demanding that I explain things in a deterministic way! Asking for specific indicators of why Scotland will be a certain way post-independence when, fundamentally, my approach to the issue looks at things in a more stochastic way. That is what I'm saying. And I think that the massive impact that the current economic climate is having on the daily lives of most of the Scottish electorate will be a very important variable in who they vote for post imdependence. Those two factors (being a new independent country and the unprecendented economic situation of the moment) will inevitably change politics in Scotland. If I had to make a decision on the direction on that change, yes, I would have to say it would be slightly to the right. I'm not asking for specific anything, I am simply asking why you are convinced of the opinion you gave. Is that so odd? Maybe to you, and you feel you have to dance, and jump about in an attempt to dodge, I don't know. I don't think I have ever conversed with someone so slippery, (except for creationists). You seem to take issue with being asked questions. Very odd behaviour on a forum. (I note you still haven't really answered... Just tell us it is your gut feeling, and be done with it)
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ViperPict
8,424 posts
106 months
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TheHeretic said: ViperPict said: The deterministic part is you demanding that I explain things in a deterministic way! Asking for specific indicators of why Scotland will be a certain way post-independence when, fundamentally, my approach to the issue looks at things in a more stochastic way. That is what I'm saying. And I think that the massive impact that the current economic climate is having on the daily lives of most of the Scottish electorate will be a very important variable in who they vote for post imdependence. Those two factors (being a new independent country and the unprecendented economic situation of the moment) will inevitably change politics in Scotland. If I had to make a decision on the direction on that change, yes, I would have to say it would be slightly to the right. I'm not asking for specific anything, I am simply asking why you are convinced of the opinion you gave. Is that so odd? Maybe to you, and you feel you have to dance, and jump about in an attempt to dodge, I don't know. I don't think I have ever conversed with someone so slippery, (except for creationists). You seem to take issue with being asked questions. Very odd behaviour on a forum. (I note you still haven't really answered... Just tell us it is your gut feeling, and be done with it) I don't think at any point I've said I'm convinced or been that specific on what the outcome will be! Taking a stochastic stance on this, I can't be that specific, by definition! The answer, in as far as I can give it (given my philosophicl standpoit), is in the post you've quoted above. Show me where I've ever said anything different to that?
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TheHeretic
67,896 posts
124 months
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ViperPict said: I don't think at any point I've said I'm convinced or been that specific on what the outcome will be! Taking a stochastic stance on this, I can't be that specific, by definition! The answer, in as far as I can give it (given my philosophicl standpoit), is in the post you've quoted above. Show me where I've ever said anything different to that? You want me to trawl through the thread? Seriously? I'll open to floor to other posters that you are convinced that Scotland will move to the right.
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WhereamI
6,092 posts
86 months
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TheHeretic said: You want me to trawl through the thread? Seriously? I'll open to floor to other posters that you are convinced that Scotland will move to the right. Yes, that has been his stock response to the suggestion that an independent Scotland will be left of centre.
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WhereamI
6,092 posts
86 months
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As for all this stochastic v deterministic stuff the economics are much more at the deterministic end. Quite clearly certain actions have pre-determined outcomes. Higher risk leads to higher interest rates which leads to increased cost to service debt. There is nothing stochastic about that.
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NailedOn
1,241 posts
104 months
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WhereamI said: As for all this stochastic v deterministic stuff the economics are much more at the deterministic end. Quite clearly certain actions have pre-determined outcomes. Higher risk leads to higher interest rates which leads to increased cost to service debt. There is nothing stochastic about that. Seconded.
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