Is the end nigh for the Euro? [vol. 2]
Discussion
According to the guardian live feed Alexis Tsipras is off to meet Merllande before the G8 meeting. It'll be interesting to see how long the fly holds out once he's in the middle of the spider's web.
On the face of it there seems to be a paradox where people don't want austerity but do want to remain within the euro. IMO it's not such a paradox though.
Austerity as it is currently being practiced is little more than denial about the hbat's inability to pay their debts, a deceitful and highly unpleasant way to make the poorest pay for the shortcomings of Europes banks.
The euro is however a political construct, one that people like because it's a symbol of everyone getting along and cooperating. I honestly don't think average Joe has that good a grasp of the numbers, a bank is simply somewhere where your wages go in and the little plastic card is how you get your wages out. Anything beyond that is up to the bankers and if it feks up then it's all the bankers fault.
Thus there is genuine appetite among most Europeans to keep the euro and three of its leading exponents (Hollande, Merkel and Monti) will spend the weekend in America being given a little chat by Obama and CMD. Oh to be a fly on the wall at that meeting
On the face of it there seems to be a paradox where people don't want austerity but do want to remain within the euro. IMO it's not such a paradox though.
Austerity as it is currently being practiced is little more than denial about the hbat's inability to pay their debts, a deceitful and highly unpleasant way to make the poorest pay for the shortcomings of Europes banks.
The euro is however a political construct, one that people like because it's a symbol of everyone getting along and cooperating. I honestly don't think average Joe has that good a grasp of the numbers, a bank is simply somewhere where your wages go in and the little plastic card is how you get your wages out. Anything beyond that is up to the bankers and if it feks up then it's all the bankers fault.
Thus there is genuine appetite among most Europeans to keep the euro and three of its leading exponents (Hollande, Merkel and Monti) will spend the weekend in America being given a little chat by Obama and CMD. Oh to be a fly on the wall at that meeting
davepoth said:
PRTVR said:
Another word that I like, that fits with the euro/Europe is
Ozymandian
Link to meaning
http://m.urbandictionary.com/#define?term=ozymandi...
Ozymandian
Link to meaning
http://m.urbandictionary.com/#define?term=ozymandi...
Shelley said:
I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: "Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown
And wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed.
And on the pedestal these words appear:
`My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!'
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away".
Who said: "Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown
And wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed.
And on the pedestal these words appear:
`My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!'
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away".
Mermaid said:
Gary11 said:
Cost of Greek exit to the eurozone estimated at 1tn euros!!!
If it was a lot less, Greece would have been squeezed before you could say Spanakofita "If you owe the bank £5K you have a problem. If you owe the bank £500K the bank has a problem"
"On the face of it there seems to be a paradox where people don't want austerity but do want to remain within the euro. IMO it's not such a paradox though."
I dont find it a paradox its a lot more simple than that, they actually have tasted austerity didnt like it one bit and will like Iceland stuck two fingers up keep the money and not pay it back morally wrong and bankrupt perhaps, but they need jobs 3yrs down the line its still borrow borrow so the end of Austerity is further away not nearer,therefore the most anti Austerity party will win votes irrespective of left or right bias,has anybody got any figures on Greek GDP is there any hope for them even if they wipe and start over??I mean do they manufacture or earn a profit anywhere apart from tourisim and olives?
I dont find it a paradox its a lot more simple than that, they actually have tasted austerity didnt like it one bit and will like Iceland stuck two fingers up keep the money and not pay it back morally wrong and bankrupt perhaps, but they need jobs 3yrs down the line its still borrow borrow so the end of Austerity is further away not nearer,therefore the most anti Austerity party will win votes irrespective of left or right bias,has anybody got any figures on Greek GDP is there any hope for them even if they wipe and start over??I mean do they manufacture or earn a profit anywhere apart from tourisim and olives?
Irish said:
http://www.myfoxdfw.com/story/18478638/spains-bank...
RichardD said:
BigBen said:
... I should have listened a bit more carefully...
Indeed you should! That sort of information could cause Steffan to spontaneously combust !!Who is noticable by his absense here for a little while, maybe he already has !?
(Read a few random pages of this topic if you don't know who Steffan is)
On the question of when the HBAT's are down I do think the gameplan is changing. We all know Greece is toast, which means the EU have lost a couple of Trillion Euro's for nothing. That's more than even I spend on cars!
What happens next. Greece will still try to wheedle a bit more out of the EU with promises and good intentions, but I would think that, even the EU, incompetent and feckless though the leaders have been, has begun to see the downside of throwing good money after bad.
The real question is what will the EU do next about the HBAT's still waiting to fall out of the Euro namely, Portugal Spain and Italy?
Many contributors such as Mermaid, and others, have quite correctly repeatedly warned that the financial ability of the EU, to gloss over problems within the EU, is immense.
This is because the EU has no concern about throwing away trillions of Euro's the EU taxpayers money. As we have seen.
Could the EU hold the remaining HBATS in the Euro? On balance, despite the EU profligacy, in the economic recession already faced, throughout Europe, there is IMO not a chance for all the HBAT's. The insolvency of all these defaulting states is steadily growing and way beyond the recovery point for all of them.
What the EU can and IMO will do is to delay, delay, delay. That will be the new gameplan. In that way the hammerblow of all the HBAT's falling out of the Euro AT THE SAME TIME, can be avoided and the consequences spread over possibly some years.
The costs to the EU will be horrendous but what do the EU leaders care.? Its not their money. It ours!
That is how I see it now. Greeks out in a pretty short order, then obfuscation galore, by the EU, with lots of Major Summits, Strategic Agreements, Group Meetings, Conferences, Administrative Arrangements, Rescue Plans, New Financial Initiatives and other such timewasting devices. All of which will have absolutely no effect on the outcome. The csts will be be horrendous but it could buy time. Which will be the EU sole concern
This could extend the time the HBAT's remain in the Euro. Typical dishonest misrepresentation, by the EU and vast amounts of EU taxpayers money wasted. Business as usual there then.
There are no fixes for thus mess. Simply, very sad, injurious and grossly unfair consequences. To everyone in the EU except the Politicians.
turbobloke said:
Watching RT will get a more balanced picture of just about anything.
I tend to view RT as the "opposite goalpost" for any given news story. Makes for a useful counterweight, but you do have to "adjust for Putin". Enjoy watching Max Keiser, but think it's telling that his RT output is much more overblown than his Press TV show, which I think is the better of the two. He has become somewhat trapped in his own style on RT. Seems to have become more about him shouting and screaming than any real analysis. He also only really talks to people of the same mindset, which is interesting if you're a new viewer, but does tend to descend to groupthink after a while.hornet said:
turbobloke said:
Watching RT will get a more balanced picture of just about anything.
I tend to view RT as the "opposite goalpost" for any given news story. Makes for a useful counterweight, but you do have to "adjust for Putin".Gary11 said:
turbobloke said:
" Watching RT will get a more balanced picture of just about anything."
Worryingly so I agree!
Nothing to worry about
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