Is the end nigh for the Euro? [vol. 2]
Discussion
Mermaid said:
True, printing machines/wizardry/Mario trounced the weak fundamentals. Has been fun though 
Fundamentals not looking good are they... http://www.mindfulmoney.co.uk/wp/shaun-richards/ve...BTW anyone else noticed the construction figures in Greece? Q4 2012 were down 66% on Q4 2011! Basically, a whole industry has been terminated. And if you consider construction as being a lead economic indicator...
Andy Zarse said:
Mermaid said:
True, printing machines/wizardry/Mario trounced the weak fundamentals. Has been fun though
Fundamentals not looking good are they... http://www.mindfulmoney.co.uk/wp/shaun-richards/ve...BTW anyone else noticed the construction figures in Greece? Q4 2012 were down 66% on Q4 2011! Basically, a whole industry has been terminated. And if you consider construction as being a lead economic indicator...
Andy Zarse said:
Fundamentals not looking good are they... http://www.mindfulmoney.co.uk/wp/shaun-richards/ve...
BTW anyone else noticed the construction figures in Greece? Q4 2012 were down 66% on Q4 2011! Basically, a whole industry has been terminated. And if you consider construction as being a lead economic indicator...
& this comment caught my eye:BTW anyone else noticed the construction figures in Greece? Q4 2012 were down 66% on Q4 2011! Basically, a whole industry has been terminated. And if you consider construction as being a lead economic indicator...
"It is not my purpose here to say that the position is hopeless in Italy as she does have private-sector savings and indeed a considerable black economy which could be mobilised to help her in her time of economic difficulty. The problem is that there is little sign of this so far and we know that another turn of the Euro area austerity screw is planned for 2013"
Sequestration anyone?
Andy Zarse said:
BTW anyone else noticed the construction figures in Greece? Q4 2012 were down 66% on Q4 2011! Basically, a whole industry has been terminated. And if you consider construction as being a lead economic indicator...
Sales at Walmart not looking too prettyhttp://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b52386ec-77a8-11e2-b95a-...
& I hear John Lewis may be laying off some managerial staff.
Mermaid said:
Sales at Walmart not looking too pretty
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b52386ec-77a8-11e2-b95a-...
& I hear John Lewis may be laying off some managerial staff.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b52386ec-77a8-11e2-b95a-...
& I hear John Lewis may be laying off some managerial staff.
Andy Zarse said:
BTW anyone else noticed the construction figures in Greece? Q4 2012 were down 66% on Q4 2011! Basically, a whole industry has been terminated. And if you consider construction as being a lead economic indicator...
Don't Greeks only have to pay tax on buildings when they are finished so they never actually finish the buildings completely? greygoose said:
Andy Zarse said:
BTW anyone else noticed the construction figures in Greece? Q4 2012 were down 66% on Q4 2011! Basically, a whole industry has been terminated. And if you consider construction as being a lead economic indicator...
Don't Greeks only have to pay tax on buildings when they are finished so they never actually finish the buildings completely? Steffan said:
Absolutely correct and yet the EU leaders deny absolutely that any failures within the Euro can or will occur. The fact is that none of the obviously failing states within the Euro can recover from inside the Euro. The currency value is way beyond their economic capacity.
The dishonesty and abuse of power of the EU politicians in order to hold the mechanism together when in the case of Spain, Greece, Portugal and all the other failing Euro states, collapse is inevitable in the end, is utterly reprehensible. But it is working at the moment and for that reason the Euro is holding up currently.
This can only end in a massive and spreading series of collapses within the EU. Once one state admits or effects failure the rest of the failing states will be forced by the markets to follow. There will be horrendous costs to the EU taxpayers and appalling poverty and disruption to the failing states. But, as the EU politicians have demonstrated that is not their concern. They will be happy because they personal plan to have escaped will have been enacted by then, taking the millions they have made out of EU politics with them, invested in a stable currency, and have moved onto the world stage that modern politics provides for former failed leaders.
The figures in the article quote on Spain by ArtDir speak for themselves. There is no future in this nonsense for any of the failing states. Their insolvency will ramp up steadily until the crunch comes, which it will.
On the other hand Steffan, it's all going according to the plan.The dishonesty and abuse of power of the EU politicians in order to hold the mechanism together when in the case of Spain, Greece, Portugal and all the other failing Euro states, collapse is inevitable in the end, is utterly reprehensible. But it is working at the moment and for that reason the Euro is holding up currently.
This can only end in a massive and spreading series of collapses within the EU. Once one state admits or effects failure the rest of the failing states will be forced by the markets to follow. There will be horrendous costs to the EU taxpayers and appalling poverty and disruption to the failing states. But, as the EU politicians have demonstrated that is not their concern. They will be happy because they personal plan to have escaped will have been enacted by then, taking the millions they have made out of EU politics with them, invested in a stable currency, and have moved onto the world stage that modern politics provides for former failed leaders.
The figures in the article quote on Spain by ArtDir speak for themselves. There is no future in this nonsense for any of the failing states. Their insolvency will ramp up steadily until the crunch comes, which it will.
Once the individual states realise that they just cannot survive as soverign states an longer, the full integration of Europe into a single state will begin.
Take FULL European single state membership, and all debts will be absorbed into the whole.
Do you feel like starting a new thread "United States of Europe by 2020?", it might all seem logical??
Is there not something in the bible about not "laying with pig".
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis...
Tartan Pixie said:
Good news everyone, someone in Greece bought a Ferrari. The worst must surely be over
No wonder the Italians want to get Greece sorted out.Tartan Pixie said:
Good news everyone, someone in Greece bought a Ferrari. The worst must surely be over
That because they now buy Ferraris to drive around in London to go with their Knightsbridge Homesloafer123 said:
Andrew[MG] said:
Art0ir said:
Is that the "Super Scary Monstrous Buy PMs or else?!" presentation?
I left it running and it hasn't got to the "Buy our great book/pdf/video/advice for only £99.99" yetMoneyweek have predicted 300 of the last 0 depressions.
That link scared the s
t out of me alright, especially since a mate of ours (successful businessman on a whole different level to me) has said the st is going to hit the fan soon.As a result I've had another mate on asking to help him sell his old 930 Turbo as he's battoning down the hatches.
Do I sell my GT3 worth £35k (at the minute) and my little retirement rental property (currently with only £30k equity but on repayment mortgage) and take up shooting so I have my gun ready legally for when the apocalypse comes!?
I jest in the last bit, but should I give up everything I enjoy now to protect my family in what looks inevitable?!
What action are you guys taking?
Honestly, life is too short to live in a bunker.
I can't tell you what to do, but as long as you haven't borrowed too much, and have some money for a rainy day set aside, I would just get on with your life.
You missed the really scary bit when the entire financial system nearly went "pop". I was pretty well informed at the time and I can tell you that life is alot less risky now.
I wouldn't care to be Spanish or Greek at the moment, though.
Jaged said:
On the other hand Steffan, it's all going according to the plan.
Once the individual states realise that they just cannot survive as soverign states an longer, the full integration of Europe into a single state will begin.
Take FULL European single state membership, and all debts will be absorbed into the whole.
Do you feel like starting a new thread "United States of Europe by 2020?", it might all seem logical??
I've argued from this point of view in numerous ways over the last few hundred pages and it always comes back to the same sticking point, democracy. Politicians have lied so consistently and for so long that they are now unable to speak the truth.Once the individual states realise that they just cannot survive as soverign states an longer, the full integration of Europe into a single state will begin.
Take FULL European single state membership, and all debts will be absorbed into the whole.
Do you feel like starting a new thread "United States of Europe by 2020?", it might all seem logical??
Politicians in Germany and the north have spent the last decade promising that the euro will bring prosperity and will be beneficial to taxpayers, Merkel et al are still spouting this line now even as Greece gets a full short back and sides. The truth is that full banking union means permanent subsidy from the richer nations to the poorer ones.
Another huge lie used to sell the EU to southern Europeans is that it's some sort of socialist endeavor, however the truth is that to be in a union with Germany they must painfully de-socialize. Public sector jobs must be cut, utilities and resources privatized, pension ages raised and tax actually has to be paid. In short they must go through the sort of reforms that the UK went through in the seventies, which is the exact opposite of what they were promised.
Thanks to these lies the EU stumbles from fudge to fudge without ever facing the fundamental realities of unification. Each national leader has to wade about in their own bullshine until a compromise decision is reached, the prime goal of which is to allow those leaders to perpetuate the lies upon which they were elected. The future of the EU is a mere secondary consideration to such people.
Underpinning all this is, as you rightly point out, the debt structure. I don't believe European leaders are competent enough to wield such a force, it would be more accurate to say that the river of debt has hit some rapids and the politicians are clinging to their rubber dinghy for dear life. Sadly we are never taught how this is the true definition of democracy.
By taking out insurance policies, pensions, etc we buy in to the debt of foreign nations. This makes us part of their financial ecosystem. Mostly Britain is a predator (debt owner) so for the ecosystem to continue we must have healthy prey, which means we must cycle money back to the indebted countries in order for them to keep paying their debts. For an example of this system in action see how most UK businesses and house owners (prey) are paying money to canary wharf (predator), which is then taxed and redistributed to the areas where the money came from in the first place.
The debt situation in Europe has been created by individuals who've had free choice about who they bank with and what they do with their money. Banking is the single most powerful democratic action you will ever take yet we are educated to look no further than the interest rate.
We can bang on about EU politics all we like but frankly Jaged has hit the nail on the head, the EU will happen because of debt. The EU will happen because we all voted for it to happen, we voted with our wallets and all those political lies are being swept away on the current of our collective actions.
As such the EU isn't something that will happen because political will triumphed over the market. Integration is driven by banking and money flow but may not happen because of lies and incompetence by politicians. My money's on the market winning.
Edited by Tartan Pixie on Wednesday 20th February 00:39
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