Surely the Trojan Horse is a metaphor for the Euro?

Mein gott, but somebody in the media has actually got it right for once!

"Throughout the crisis, Germany has in truth been more accommodating than it seems in trying to hold together this French-inspired, economic folie de grandeur. It’s agreed to prop the region up with bail-outs, and it has put hundreds of billions of its own surplus savings on the line by providing the periphery banking system with the liquidity it requires to stay afloat."

Makes you wonder how much say the ordinary german had about that!

[Devils Advocate]

The EU does have a financial bazooka capable of sorting out this mess and saving the euro, it's called federalization, a word that's not nearly as dirty or as left wing as some in this thread would have us believe.

References to the EUSSR are powerful propaganda but ultimately misleading because all indicators point to an American model of federalization, which last time I looked was firmly in the capitalist camp, indeed may even have some history with regards to communism.

The reason this is achievable is because very few people have an understanding of money beyond what's in their own bank account. It would in theory be possible to introduce eurobonds, give the ECB power to issue money directly and provide continuous subsidy through Hollande's 'growth pact', thus creating a federal superstate while simultaneously preserving the illusion of being independent sovereign countries.

Arguably this is the only way to move forward without encountering Steffan's much vaunted crunch. 40 years of democracy is exactly what's got Greece in to this mess because the population at large doesn't understand that PASOK/ND/New Labour/insert left leaning party here are buying votes with money they don't have.

So long as this perverse incentive to buy votes exists within democracy there will be space for the EU to consolidate their power, after all cutting back on public spending and then supporting wealth creating entrepreneurs is the only realistic way out of a hole.

The EU has already proven itself far more adept at cutting public spending than PASOK/ND and depending on what Hollande comes up with may well prove better at spurring growth too.

Underlying this is a schizophrenia among the people of Europe who want both closer union and respect for national sovereignty, so perhaps it's unsurprising that we are seeing fiscal unity while each country maintains a monopoly of force within their own country (police/army). It is after all exactly what people are asking for.

This can be seen most clearly in the way Greek people want to stay in the euro, even the anti austerity parties are talking of renegotiating the bailout rather than leaving the euro. This gives Hollande a huge lever because there are only two choices on the table - fiscal union or bust.

IMO what we are seeing is a perfectly predictable outcome of the single currency, the southern countries are already submitting to the EU plan and within the next six months we will see the Northern countries submit too, even if only to protect Germany from reverting to a strong deutschmark.

Given the strength of will among both people and politicians the above is more of a when than an if.

[/Devils Advocate]

No it doesnt. Ive you explicitly what the ordinary Germans have had to say about having *no* say in whats happened several times over the past year. You dont have to wonder at all.

And Croyft...what strings? They havent got any strings to attach.
"Do this or else!"
"Or else what?"
"Er, or else we will threaten not to talk about making anymore loans."
"OK, we will default and leave you all fooked."
"Er, well look, how about you pay us a little and we might lend you some more?"
"OK, thanks."


There has been *no* strings attached to any of this dosh because nobody had any leverage to attach them.

I am rather inclined to agree with DJRC here.

I have always thought that the reality for the EU was that being the lender in the last resort and dependent on the defaulters for market confidence, is actually a real weakness. If the HBAT's drop out then the EU really is bust.

The losses on Spain, Portugal and Italy defaulting would bring down France through the collapse of the French Banks which France simply cannot fund. The EU has always had more to lose than the defaulters. If the defaulters collapse the rest of the EU will be pulled down to their level in one fell swoop of confidence collapse.

The defaulters are already in the penury, mass unemployment and mass unrest difficulty whilst still within the EU. France and the rest of the EU must be desperate not to join them.

The defaulters having already lost pretty well everything, have little to lose. IMO the EU clearly has more to lose in all of this. Being lender of the last resort AND being directly dependent on the defaulters not defaulting is a real Rock and a Hard Piece problem. No easy answers here.

Indeed - hard to believe that they wouldn't take us with them as well

The graph you posted has nothing whatsoever to do with the genuine cuts in public spending being made by the Spanish, Greek and other governments. Cuts that I'm arguing are necessary and would never have happened without the intervention of the troika, indeed would never have happened under a democratic government because people won't vote for pain.

The Sir Hümpreys running Europe know this and have played a blinder, the ECB has most of Europe in its pocket and now all the southern states countries are banging on the door of the north shouting "Fedralize or we'll pull the financial plug and fk you all up."

Perhaps I'm being tinfoil hatish but I don't think the current situation is entirely accidental. I've started to think of it as the Rothschild plan and, like it or not it's the situation we're in.

IMO over the next few weeks we're going to see Hollande pointing the currency gun at Germany and the north, "Do you feel lucky punk, well do ya?" He'll have the Spanish president at his side yammering on about eurobonds and if they get their way the euro will survive via federalization.

I'm not saying this is my preferred outcome, just that the possibility exists but is being ignored by this thread.


{Just to be clear about the devils advocate posts, my own position is that Shengen and EFTA were good but that building a European parliament was a stupid idea. What should have been a beautiful sight of Europeans integrating themselves without interference from politicians has, because of the parliament and single currency, become a power grab by a small group of self serving elites.

As such I am pro-european but am frankly sickened by the methodology being used to bring it about, I'd love to see the EU parliament disappear in to a hole in the ground along with its occupants and the euro.}

you've been saying this for some considerable time now Steffan, I'm not so sure it will, it can't......