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Welshbeef
13,047 posts
67 months
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Blib said: One could say exactly he same thing about the people who set up the disastrous Euro. But, at least with the Drachma Greece would have a chance.
There will be countries and companies willing to deal with an ex-Euro Greece. Either for financial or political reasons. Greece would survive post Euro, imo. At present, the poor sods are being slowly crushed to death. One downside to Europe of Greece leave is a substantial amount ofed tourism money will move from Spain to Greece which got to ask how would they survive... All those business closing down empty hotels having to take smaller margins just to keep the churn of customers. We need a Southern Euro Euro and a northern Euro Euro that would work similar countries grouped together they deflate and the appalling unemployment will decrease.
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Andy Zarse
8,047 posts
116 months
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Blib said: One could say exactly he same thing about the people who set up the disastrous Euro. But, at least with the Drachma Greece would have a chance.
There will be countries and companies willing to deal with an ex-Euro Greece. Either for financial or political reasons. Greece would survive post Euro, imo. At present, the poor sods are being slowly crushed to death. I don't have a problem with a new Greek drachma, your assertions are quite correct. It won't be a picnic though, not least due to the lack of credibility, but will ulimately be better than the present depression economics. It's just Globs wants to do it by creating money from thin air.
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Jaged
3,098 posts
63 months
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Welshbeef said: Blib said: One could say exactly he same thing about the people who set up the disastrous Euro. But, at least with the Drachma Greece would have a chance.
There will be countries and companies willing to deal with an ex-Euro Greece. Either for financial or political reasons. Greece would survive post Euro, imo. At present, the poor sods are being slowly crushed to death. One downside to Europe of Greece leave is a substantial amount ofed tourism money will move from Spain to Greece which got to ask how would they survive... All those business closing down empty hotels having to take smaller margins just to keep the churn of customers. We need a Southern Euro Euro and a northern Euro Euro that would work similar countries grouped together they deflate and the appalling unemployment will decrease. Make no difference what currency they have, could even be Monolopy Money. They are spending more than they earn! The Math is simple. Before you say it, so is the UK & the US et al. ALL need to cut back on public spending to balance the books, just as we all have to do with our family incomes. The trouble is we now have a Political Class that wants to "DO" something big!
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AstonZagato
3,228 posts
79 months
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Jaged said: The trouble is we now have a Political Class that wants to "DO" something big! We also have an electorate that won't reelect politicians who cut public spending. As we all know, politicians are motivated not by the long-term good but by their own need to reelected at the next plebiscite. Tytler said: A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years.
Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage.
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Globs
11,747 posts
100 months
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Blib said: Andy Zarse said: Except we are no longer living in the 19th century. Or maybe you think politicians and civil servants, especially Greek ones, are less egregious than bankers? Or that they have the relevant skill set to manage a currency? I have never heard anything like it! One could say exactly he same thing about the people who set up the disastrous Euro. But, at least with the Drachma Greece would have a chance. There will be countries and companies willing to deal with an ex-Euro Greece. Either for financial or political reasons. Greece would survive post Euro, imo. At present, the poor sods are being slowly crushed to death. Yes, the euro hasn't exactly been a raging success has it? - except perhaps for the ECB. So why does Andy think that bankers are somehow better than treasuries at running a currency? Andy - failing currencies and countries lie all around you: Every single one with a central bank issued currency!! Every Single One. And yet you tell me treasury based currencies are bad  If you print the notes, you spend the money you print and you take the money back in taxes TBH it's pretty damn easy to control the currency!! Want more notes in circulation: = more government spending and/or less taxes. Want less notes in circulation: = less government spending and/or more taxes. Money is only difficult because central bankers and their interest rates make it so, money a government prints is REALLY SIMPLE. What we need in europe is money that is REALLY SIMPLE. Oh, and debt free, which government money is. What is it about people that they are forced to believe idiot bankers over their own basic math skills? It really isn't rocket science FFS.
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Welshbeef
13,047 posts
67 months
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But sovrign debt is a mortgage and should be considered as such.
Big projects infrastructure which will yield higher tax income over the next 60 years.
£1 trillion in debt now but over a 60 year period which is what all sovrign investments should be is nothing.
A countrys debris quite different to an individual as you cannot spend more than you have or will be leant while if your a govt with a central bank you can print money to cover the in the grand scheme of things is short term.
The uk needs to cut interest rates lower again take it down to 0.25% or even zero printing money isn't a quick win to turn things around low Interest rates will encourage more consumer spending or enable quicker reduction of the mountains of personal debt. Companies will and need to start to invest.
Personally I'm hammering my personal debt as hard as I can sp whatever happens I'll be lock stock owned outright a good position. Sure not the smartest of you look at alternate investments but it's a safe option and risk free.
When will Ireland pay the UK back for the emergency loan? When will Iceland?
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1point7bar
1,091 posts
17 months
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Globs said: If you print the notes, you spend the money you print and you take the money back in taxes TBH it's pretty damn easy to control the currency!!
Want more notes in circulation: = more government spending and/or less taxes.
Want less notes in circulation: = less government spending and/or more taxes. How do you overcome the absolute political control of capital?
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Andy Zarse
8,047 posts
116 months
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Globs said: Yes, the euro hasn't exactly been a raging success has it? - except perhaps for the ECB. So why does Andy think that bankers are somehow better than treasuries at running a currency? Andy - failing currencies and countries lie all around you: Every single one with a central bank issued currency!! Every Single One. And yet you tell me treasury based currencies are bad If you print the notes, you spend the money you print and you take the money back in taxes TBH it's pretty damn easy to control the currency!! Want more notes in circulation: = more government spending and/or less taxes. Want less notes in circulation: = less government spending and/or more taxes. Money is only difficult because central bankers and their interest rates make it so, money a government prints is REALLY SIMPLE. What we need in europe is money that is REALLY SIMPLE. Oh, and debt free, which government money is. What is it about people that they are forced to believe idiot bankers over their own basic math skills? It really isn't rocket science FFS. How touching that you think politicians are better people than bankers. However, I do believe there is a democratic deficit in central banking given the powers they wield, so I prefer the arguement - which I have made several times on here latterly last week - that our central bankers should be somehow both elected and accountable to the populous. Take a look at the politically motivated mutual backslapping in the report complete drivel from the BoE this week. BTW I presume you deliberately refrained from commenting on it? Oh, and have you ever looked at what actually goes on in the UK Treasury? It's a frikkin' lunatic asylumn...
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AstonZagato
3,228 posts
79 months
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Art0ir
3,583 posts
39 months
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Welshbeef said: We need a Southern Euro Euro and a northern Euro Euro that would work similar countries grouped together they deflate and the appalling unemployment will decrease. Are you joking? Honestly? A currency union does not work without a fiscal and political union. It doesn't matter how suited you think a number of countries are. A nation needs the ability to devalue it's currency to survive crisis like these.
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Globs
11,747 posts
100 months
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1point7bar said: How do you overcome the absolute political control of capital? Someone has to control it - look how the ECB and the EU got on with that. May as well have a democratic body in charge. Andy Zarse said: How touching that you think politicians are better people than bankers.  You prefer bankers and politicians obviously. I prefer just one group: politicians. Who do you want running the currency - the banksters that have demonstrated the special ability to f  k it up already? Are you a masochist? Who do you suggest - the church? Cliff Richard? You? Andy Zarse said: However, I do believe there is a democratic deficit in central banking given the powers they wield, so I prefer the arguement - which I have made several times on here latterly last week - that our central bankers should be somehow both elected and accountable to the populous. Take a look at the politically motivated mutual backslapping in the report complete drivel from the BoE this week. BTW I presume you deliberately refrained from commenting on it?
Oh, and have you ever looked at what actually goes on in the UK Treasury? It's a frikkin' lunatic asylumn... The UK treasury is in disarray because they are trying to control a system they have very little control of. AstonZagato said: Government printed money is less inflationary than central bank money: you should know that after reading that book!! Also government money is the only type you could back with a gold standard - so don't knock it...
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1point7bar
1,091 posts
17 months
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What you describe is a fascist state when the struggle to gain capital becomes a game of political connections.
I think bashing the way the current lot run the show is healthy dissent.
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Globs
11,747 posts
100 months
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1point7bar said: What you describe is a fascist state when the struggle to gain capital becomes a game of political connections. Then according to you the US constitution describes a fascist state. That's quite some statement just there 1point7bar!! Care to back it up?
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1point7bar
1,091 posts
17 months
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Andy Zarse
8,047 posts
116 months
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Globs said: You prefer bankers and politicians obviously. I prefer just one group: politicians. Who do you want running the currency - the banksters that have demonstrated the special ability to f k it up already? Are you a masochist? Who do you suggest - the church? Cliff Richard? You? ...Government printed money is less inflationary than central bank money: you should know that after reading that book!! Also government money is the only type you could back with a gold standard - so don't knock it... I'd prefer Cliff to either Merv or Georgie Boy, provided he doesn't sing. On the other hand, I assume you've seen the war currently going on in Europe between the ECB and the politicians? Of course, the politicians are winning. And thereby we witness an important illustration on what happens when policians meddle in the business of central banking and effectively force the resignation of independent-minded and vaguely honourable banking executives like Jurgen Stark and put in their own placemen like Mario Draghi. It is spineless lying politicians who have largely created the scope for the current euro-mess, not their central bankers. It's okay being risible for cheap laughs but you seem to be suggesting the benefits of a gold standard as a serious point? Surely not!
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Globs
11,747 posts
100 months
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1point7bar said: No. http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html It's there in section 8 and section 10. Do you want to withdraw your claim that having a government coin it's own money makes it a fascist state?
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AstonZagato
3,228 posts
79 months
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Globs said: Government printed money is less inflationary than central bank money: you should know that after reading that book!!
Also government money is the only type you could back with a gold standard - so don't knock it... I have no love of central bankers - I would get rid of the central bank, were I in power. However, central banks are generally a political tool. The trouble with governments printing money is that they rarely want to have the currency backed by a gold standard - it is far too restrictive. Indeed, you did not seem to be suggesting a gold standard. Fiat money is a therefore, at moments like this, a disaster waiting to happen.
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Globs
11,747 posts
100 months
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AstonZagato said: Globs said: Government printed money is less inflationary than central bank money: you should know that after reading that book!!
Also government money is the only type you could back with a gold standard - so don't knock it... I have no love of central bankers - I would get rid of the central bank, were I in power. However, central banks are generally a political tool. The trouble with governments printing money is that they rarely want to have the currency backed by a gold standard - it is far too restrictive. Indeed, you did not seem to be suggesting a gold standard. Fiat money is a therefore, at moments like this, a disaster waiting to happen. Ok, the big problem with a central bank is that they charge interest. People don't notice that, it's just a detail to them, but it's a fundamental shift of relationship from a bank that lends you money to a bank that will screw you and take all your stuff. That interest creates a debt spiral that NO country can EVER get out of. It creates inflation by growth of the debt, EXPONENTIAL growth of the debt. You CANNOT apply a gold standard to an exponentially growing currency. it is IMPOSSIBLE to ever dig up an exponential amount of gold to back it with. Therefore you can ONLY apply a gold standard to an INTEREST FREE currency. That's it, simple maths. But very powerful elemental maths. Inflation has two causes: 1) interest, 2) over-borrowing. A government currency removes the main cause of inflation: interest. Interest is more important and more fundamental than a gold standard. You cannot even consider a gold standard without interest free money. that's why gold standards in both the US and the UK failed, and why the FED ended up confiscating everyone's gold in the US.
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1point7bar
1,091 posts
17 months
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Globs said: If you think this is what I mean then yes. It is not what I said though.
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1point7bar
1,091 posts
17 months
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1point7bar said: What you describe is a fascist state when the struggle to gain capital becomes a game of political connections.
I think bashing the way the current lot run the show is healthy dissent.
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