Is the end nigh for the Euro? [vol. 2]

[Digga]

Gary11 said:

Digga said:

This.

IIRC they have been in default for something ridiculous like 75% of their country's indepenence.

Beggars the question why is the cumalative economic know how of PH superior to that of the ENTIRE EU?
Would anyone lend them money or go into buisness with such a country?
Sadly this isnt just retoric this has had a tragic cost for the Greek people chasing a dream that sadly passed long ago will now cost the whole nation and others dear!

The EU and Euro have little to do with economic ideals. Ture, there are trade benefits but IMHO the overiding driinvg force is and always has been a political, almost religious ideology - a plan to create an EUSSR.

Top be frank, many if not most EU 'economists' knew about Greece's dirty deal with Goldman to warehouse debts and get them hidden away off balance sheet, in order from them to join the Euro at the time, but chose to ignore it because the ecomics were secondary to the politial ideal og a bigger empire for the Eurocrats to govern and leech from.

[speedy_thrills]

0a said:

Well it looks like Germany is going to cut Greece free now they realise the only money Greece will now be able to use to buy German exports is German money.

Which is a much smaller, shorter, less imaginative version of the game China and other emerging economies are playing with the west. Control the money supply to undermine economic sovereignty and win influence.

Well played on their part so far of course, credit where it is due.

[Digga]

speedy_thrills said:

0a said:

Well it looks like Germany is going to cut Greece free now they realise the only money Greece will now be able to use to buy German exports is German money.

Which is a much smaller, shorter, less imaginative version of the game China and other emerging economies are playing with the west. Control the money supply to undermine economic sovereignty and win influence.

Well played on their part so far of course, credit where it is due.

There is a difference though.

Germany can do without Greece's custom, the same cannot be said for China (or the other BRICs) with regard to trade with the USA and EU.

[bosscerbera]

speedy_thrills said:

0a said:

Well it looks like Germany is going to cut Greece free now they realise the only money Greece will now be able to use to buy German exports is German money.

Which is a much smaller, shorter, less imaginative version of the game China and other emerging economies are playing with the west. Control the money supply to undermine economic sovereignty and win influence.

Well played on their part so far of course, credit where it is due.

Bravo.

A timely reminder that the euro/EZ scrap is a sideshow.

[bosscerbera]

Digga said:

There is a difference though.

Germany can do without Greece's custom, the same cannot be said for China (or the other BRICs) with regard to trade with the USA and EU.

Disagree.

1 BRIC entrepreneurs might like western baubles but let's be clear there is nothing we have that they depend on.
2 If you're lending to people who can't pay back (USA/EU), once you've finished foreclosing-by-stealth, you might as well give/lend/donate money to peasants in your own back yard.

The relentless emasculation of the western hegemony by BRICs is a much bigger issue than eurotwaddle.

The west is not so much on the cusp of being hoist by its own petard as on the cusp of the mother of all wedgies.

Edited by bosscerbera on Tuesday 7th February 11:30

[Globs]

Andy Zarse said:

Ozzie Osmond said:

Andy Zarse said:

Tell the thousands of people in Athens living in their cars and on the streets that it's madness.

Can you explain how further austerity will lift Greeks out of debt and why it won't finally decimate their economy.

Like all socialists you have no heed for the welfare of your fellow man, only of social theories.

Those people are living in cars and in the streets NOW. How will it help them to be doing the same thing in a bankrupt country?

I anticipate your final comment was intended to be some sort of insult. Do try harder.

Not an insult, a simple observation.

Do you agree they're living in cars because of the euro? A return to the drachma would at least offer some hope of a return to prosperity. You could at least explain how more austerity and staying in the insanity of the euro would do the same, rather than the depression they've had for the last four years.

I've never understood the way socialists look at their failures, feel sorry for the people affected and then prescribe more of the same... it's fairly obvious even to a 3 year old that the Greeks need the EU and the euro like a hole in the head.

[speedy_thrills]

Digga said:

Germany can do without Greece's custom, the same cannot be said for China (or the other BRICs) with regard to trade with the USA and EU.

I’m not sure any of us really want to find out who it would hurt most. There is still time if western countries make the right choices now. What is it worth to us to avoid finding out, South China Sea or Taiwan? Perhaps a few Japanese islands first as a warm up?

[DJRC]

bosscerbera said:

Digga said:

There is a difference though.

Germany can do without Greece's custom, the same cannot be said for China (or the other BRICs) with regard to trade with the USA and EU.

Disagree.

1 BRIC entrepreneurs might like western baubles but let's be clear there is nothing we have that they depend on.
2 If you're lending to people who can't pay back (USA/EU), once you've finished foreclosing-by-stealth, you might as well give/lend/donate money to peasants in your own back yard.

The relentless emasculation of the western hegemony by BRICs is a much bigger issue than eurotwaddle.

The west is not so much on the cusp of being hoist by its own petard as on the cusp of the mother of all wedgies.

Edited by bosscerbera on Tuesday 7th February 11:30

This has been a theme of yours for a while Phil and I have to admit to having glossed over it really, but I think perhaps now would be a good time for you to deliver a bit more chapter and verse on it. Namely, what have you been trying to say and what have I been ignoring?

[Digga]

bosscerbera said:

Digga said:

There is a difference though.

Germany can do without Greece's custom, the same cannot be said for China (or the other BRICs) with regard to trade with the USA and EU.

Disagree.

1 BRIC entrepreneurs might like western baubles but let's be clear there is nothing we have that they depend on.
2 If you're lending to people who can't pay back (USA/EU), once you've finished foreclosing-by-stealth, you might as well give/lend/donate money to peasants in your own back yard.

The relentless emasculation of the western hegemony by BRICs is a much bigger issue than eurotwaddle.

The west is not so much on the cusp of being hoist by its own petard as on the cusp of the mother of all wedgies.

Edited by bosscerbera on Tuesday 7th February 11:30

My argument is not that BRICs rely on US?EU products, but rather that without the custome of the US/EU they might fall a bit flat themselves.

We are at the end of the longest period of widespread fiat currency ever encountered. I don't know any one - economists or otherwise - who have a plausable explanation of where we're next headed. My money is still on a 'race to the bottom' (inflate away the pain) for the overborrowed currencies.

[Gary11]

Brasil is self sufficent and almost double taxes luxury imported goods,they are just coming on stream wait till they get into gear one of the most "growable" economies IMO.....and a new currency!
G

[Steffan]

The emerging nations such as Brasil is certainly interesting and I am enjoying the education from others.

IMO Greece will not default yet. I anticipate a last minute agreement with huge grandstanding by Merkel, Sarkozy, the Greek politicians and others proclaiming economic peace in our time which will prove to be as lasting as the Chamberlain fiasco.

The Greeks will default after the final tranche of subsidy is paid by the EU and not before. They will take the EU for every penny they can get..

The BEEB are proclaiming that the EU can survive the default of Greece see:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16923706

I am sorry to say the politicians of the EU are so utterly without shame and genuine concern for the welfare of Europeans that forecasting the future is best achieved by considering how the EU politicians will protect themselves, there being no other matter of concern to them.

As others have said modern politicians only look after themselves.

They happily cause the country to borrow way beyond the capacity of the sovereign state to repay such borrowings and buy votes with grossly inflated public sector wages and the Benefits gravy train.

I therefore anticipate a little longer for the Greek tragedy to run.

Then the Greeks will default totally and a raft of disastrous consequences will rewrite the financial map of Europe, European banks and Insurance companies all dragged down by the consequences of reckless lending and borrowing.

If the EU faced the problem now they might be able to structure a more sensible progressive and controlled default. But they prefer the chaos of an uncoordinated collapse because they will have a ready made Bad Guy to blame.

Greece. All their fault. The bds. It really is that ridiculous.

[Mermaid]

Steffan said:

..
Greece. All their fault. The bds. It really is that ridiculous.

Not at all, the rest had a pretty good idea of what Greece has been all about for centuries.

[Digga]

Mermaid said:

Steffan said:

..
Greece. All their fault. The bds. It really is that ridiculous.

Not at all, the rest had a pretty good idea of what Greece has been all about for centuries.

Totally and let's be clear, the GS/Greece debt deal was in no way the only example of an EU nation using clever finance to obfuscate their true debt position. http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,...

[Gary11]

There is nothing possibly any of us could tell the EU leaders about the true figures.
They know now and knew then all in it together and all will sink together.
Best form of defence is attack....or deny everything.
The gravy train is soon to derail!
I agree with Steffan TBH they dont care about anyone but themselves!Once thats understood it all falls into place desperate dilousional people.
Did they ever stop and think about the broken nation(s) they will leave behind,with no prospects no pensions and 10yrs at least of austerity....unless they default.
G
app typos
bb

Edited by Gary11 on Tuesday 7th February 14:37

Edited by Gary11 on Tuesday 7th February 14:39

[ianash]

The FT today were reporting that any money paid to Greece would be paid into an escrow account and be used largely to pay bondholders. Who are the bondholders? - haircutted commercial banks/pension funds/hedgies and of course ECB, IMF and other Sovereign holders. Looks like an old fashioned credit card rollover to me.

[Gary11]

ianash said:

The FT today were reporting that any money paid to Greece would be paid into an escrow account and be used largely to pay bondholders. Who are the bondholders? - haircutted commercial banks/pension funds/hedgies and of course ECB, IMF and other Sovereign holders. Looks like an old fashioned credit card rollover to me.

return of the ponzi!

[Durruti]

Frau Merkel Summarizes The Situation

Submitted by Tyler Durden on 02/07/2012 14:13 -0500

Greece headlines United Kingdom



Thank you Angie for confirming what we all knew: that absent the help of the 950% debt-to-GDP levered UK, the European experiement is over.
MERKEL SAYS 'WE NEED GREAT BRITAIN IN THE EUROPEAN UNION' - BLOOMBERG

Well, uh, fingers crossed and good luck with that.

And some other headlines from the Frau:
MERKEL SAYS GREECE IN 'VERY COMPLICATED SITUATION'
MERKEL SAYS GREECE NEEDS FULL DISCLOSURE OF ECONOMIC SITUATION
MERKEL SAYS GREECE EURO EXIT WOULD HAVE 'INCALCULABLE' IMPACT
MERKEL SAYS JOINT DEBT ONLY PAPERS OVER COMPETITIVENESS GAPS

And more such talking points, but this one is best:
MERKEL SAYS SHE WILL HAVE NO PART IN FORCING GREECE OUT OF THE EURO - RTRS

Yup, she will leave that decision to the Greek 100% beggar-to-citizen population. Oh, and fiscal feudalism 101... it's back:
MERKEL SAYS EUROPEAN NATIONS WILL NEED TO CEDE MORE POWER TO EU.


Angies gonna get ya.................

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/frau-merkel-summariz...

[Camoradi]

Ms Merkel has quite an interesting history, if this blog is to be believed....most of the main facts check out with other sources..

http://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2012/01/30/revealed-an...

[DJRC]

Durruti said:

Frau Merkel Summarizes The Situation

Submitted by Tyler Durden on 02/07/2012 14:13 -0500

Greece headlines United Kingdom



Thank you Angie for confirming what we all knew: that absent the help of the 950% debt-to-GDP levered UK, the European experiement is over.
MERKEL SAYS 'WE NEED GREAT BRITAIN IN THE EUROPEAN UNION' - BLOOMBERG

Well, uh, fingers crossed and good luck with that.

And some other headlines from the Frau:
MERKEL SAYS GREECE IN 'VERY COMPLICATED SITUATION'
MERKEL SAYS GREECE NEEDS FULL DISCLOSURE OF ECONOMIC SITUATION
MERKEL SAYS GREECE EURO EXIT WOULD HAVE 'INCALCULABLE' IMPACT
MERKEL SAYS JOINT DEBT ONLY PAPERS OVER COMPETITIVENESS GAPS

And more such talking points, but this one is best:
MERKEL SAYS SHE WILL HAVE NO PART IN FORCING GREECE OUT OF THE EURO - RTRS

Yup, she will leave that decision to the Greek 100% beggar-to-citizen population. Oh, and fiscal feudalism 101... it's back:
MERKEL SAYS EUROPEAN NATIONS WILL NEED TO CEDE MORE POWER TO EU.


Angies gonna get ya.................

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/frau-merkel-summariz...

Im sorry, but what exactly is the point you are trying to make there? Angie is going to get who? You have me lost.

[Guybrush]

Steffan said:

The emerging nations such as Brasil is certainly interesting and I am enjoying the education from others.

IMO Greece will not default yet. I anticipate a last minute agreement with huge grandstanding by Merkel, Sarkozy, the Greek politicians and others proclaiming economic peace in our time which will prove to be as lasting as the Chamberlain fiasco.

The Greeks will default after the final tranche of subsidy is paid by the EU and not before. They will take the EU for every penny they can get..

The BEEB are proclaiming that the EU can survive the default of Greece see:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16923706

I am sorry to say the politicians of the EU are so utterly without shame and genuine concern for the welfare of Europeans that forecasting the future is best achieved by considering how the EU politicians will protect themselves, there being no other matter of concern to them.

As others have said modern politicians only look after themselves.

They happily cause the country to borrow way beyond the capacity of the sovereign state to repay such borrowings and buy votes with grossly inflated public sector wages and the Benefits gravy train.

I therefore anticipate a little longer for the Greek tragedy to run.

The Beeb are likely to be a tad biased (how not unusual) with regard to their stance on EU matters; they have been receiving grant money from the EU for the past 4 years - £3 million in total.