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CommanderJameson

Original Poster:

20,646 posts

95 months

[news] 
Tuesday 14th February 2012 quote quote all
Baroness Warsi said:
My fear today is that a militant secularisation is taking hold of our societies. We see it in any number of things: when signs of religion cannot be displayed or worn in government buildings; when states won’t fund faith schools; and where religion is sidelined, marginalised and downgraded in the public sphere.
Good.

Baroness Warsi said:
I will be arguing that to create a more just society, people need to feel stronger in their religious identities and more confident in their creeds.
That's the very last thing we need in order to create a more just society - not least because religious identities are founded in books written hundreds if not thousands of years ago, and our idea of what constitutes justice has moved on since the days of rape being considered a form of adultery.

BBC Story
Telegraph comment column
Warsi's article

gherkins

333 posts

100 months

[news] 
Tuesday 14th February 2012 quote quote all
I am fuming at this - and at the other story this morning about Sean Penn calling us colonialists, as if Argentina has any claim to the Falklands. Twunt.

Anyway, back to the other story, I have no problem if people want to go off and worship fairies, spaghetti monsters or Zeus - and I will bring up my children to respect beliefs and to make their own choices, unlike the religous. BUT I will not be told that I am somehow undermining Britain or destroying culture. Of course, Christianity has had a role in shaping the UK, just like the Saxon, Viking and Norman invasions - but that doesn't mean I have to believe in some twaddle - I don't put on a Viking helmet (well, only in the privacy of the bedroom!) and prance around the streets.

OH - I am fuming!

jains15

941 posts

42 months

[news] 
Tuesday 14th February 2012 quote quote all
I don't think religion is sidelined though? How can it be being sidelined in a free society where you are free to practice whatever imaginary friend worship you like, say (almost) what you like, think what you like? Our society is built on total religious freedom and as such drawing a line in the sand WRT public buildings & schools is entirely appropriate! Do whatever on your own time, don't push your beliefs on those of us who don't 'Believe'.

You would have thought though that religious people would be all for entirely secular schooling. After all, most religious texts preach 'Love thy neighbour' and 'Be tolerant of all creeds, faiths and races'. A secular school would teach a religious child about other faiths including those who are not religious and not just the small community which they come from. However it seems a lot want religious tolerance, but only within the framework of their own chosen flavour of delusion.

ewenm

24,427 posts

114 months

[news] 
Tuesday 14th February 2012 quote quote all
Do we have a ban on personal religious symbols being worn in government buildings?

wolves_wanderer

7,944 posts

106 months

[news] 
Tuesday 14th February 2012 quote quote all
Militant is an interesting word to use. One I would associate more with certain religious groups than those with none.
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CommanderJameson

Original Poster:

20,646 posts

95 months

[news] 
Tuesday 14th February 2012 quote quote all
wolves_wanderer said:
Militant is an interesting word to use. One I would associate more with certain religious groups than those with none.
There's a lot of that sort of misdirection and loaded language in Warsi's article.

A couple of examples:

"the rising tide of secularism"

"That’s why in the 20th century, one of the first acts of totalitarian regimes was the targeting of organised religion."

Repeated uses of the word "militant", "extreme", "totalitarian" are calculated to form an association that "secularism = bad", despite the plausible deniability provided by phrases like "secularism is not intrinsically damaging". Which is, of course, followed by an suggestion of extremism in the following sentence.

Bing o

15,184 posts

88 months

[news] 
Tuesday 14th February 2012 quote quote all
jains15 said:
After all, most religious texts preach 'Love thy neighbour' and 'Be tolerant of all creeds, faiths and races'.
Doesn't one teach that all non-belivers should be converted or killed? Something about a caliphrate or something?

Digga

10,898 posts

152 months

[news] 
Tuesday 14th February 2012 quote quote all
ewenm said:
Do we have a ban on personal religious symbols being worn in government buildings?
Can be difficult to enforce. For example, post lunch, are you looking at a messy pasta eater or a spaghetti monster fundamentalist? I wouldn;t want to make that call.

HundredthIdiot

4,353 posts

153 months

[news] 
Tuesday 14th February 2012 quote quote all
Ah, the hoary old "atheist=totalitarian" chestnut.

How original.

mattviatura

2,996 posts

69 months

[news] 
Tuesday 14th February 2012 quote quote all
First of all I am not religious.

I think there is something particularly nasty about last week's court case concerning praying before council meetings. An unchangeable fact is that many aspects of our society have been built on Christian values and beliefs. So some people say a quick prayer before a meeting, so what? Nobody is compelled to join in and believe.

The atheist lobby is for some reason intent on stirring up trouble; What's next? Changing the national anthem? Our flags?


CommanderJameson

Original Poster:

20,646 posts

95 months

[news] 
Tuesday 14th February 2012 quote quote all
mattviatura said:
The atheist lobby is for some reason intent on stirring up trouble; What's next? Changing the national anthem? Our flags?
"The atheist lobby" didn't fly two planes into a skyscraper.

"The atheist lobby" doesn't stone women to death for being raped.

"The atheist lobby" doesn't systematically cover up child rape.

"The atheist lobby" doesn't actively campaign against the use of barrier contraception in countries where AIDS is (literally) epidemic.

"The atheist lobby" doesn't rock up to soldier's funerals in the USA to pronounce that they're glad they're dead.

Etc. Etc. Etc.

So, notwithstanding the fact that there isn't an "atheist lobby", what's the problem with "stirring up trouble"?

MX7

6,537 posts

43 months

[news] 
Tuesday 14th February 2012 quote quote all
mattviatura said:
First of all I am not religious.

I think there is something particularly nasty about last week's court case concerning praying before council meetings. An unchangeable fact is that many aspects of our society have been built on Christian values and beliefs. So some people say a quick prayer before a meeting, so what? Nobody is compelled to join in and believe.

The atheist lobby is for some reason intent on stirring up trouble; What's next? Changing the national anthem? Our flags?
I feel exactly the same. It's become quite de rigueur to criticise religion at any possible opportunity, which in some way has already been demonstrated on this thread.

mattviatura

2,996 posts

69 months

[news] 
Tuesday 14th February 2012 quote quote all
CommanderJameson said:
So, notwithstanding the fact that there isn't an "atheist lobby", what's the problem with "stirring up trouble"?
I'm sorry, but there is. Or there certainly appears to be. I'm not going to attempt to defend any of the indefensible and entirely valid points you make but I don't think vocal, resentful people taking town councils to court are helping matters either.

As I said, what next?

gherkins

333 posts

100 months

[news] 
Tuesday 14th February 2012 quote quote all
mattviatura said:
First of all I am not religious.

I think there is something particularly nasty about last week's court case concerning praying before council meetings. An unchangeable fact is that many aspects of our society have been built on Christian values and beliefs. So some people say a quick prayer before a meeting, so what? Nobody is compelled to join in and believe.

The atheist lobby is for some reason intent on stirring up trouble; What's next? Changing the national anthem? Our flags?
Twaddle. I won't deny tradition and history, but saying a prayer before a council meeting is wrong, just like if they prayed to Allah, the spaghetti monster or whatever - it would be wrong. Our society is built on Christian values and beliefs, yes, but it is also build on liberalism. A council meeting is a political meeting and religion has no place in politics and the Archbishops have no place in the House of Lords. If someone privately says a prayer, I have no problem, but an official scheduled prayer in a council meeting has political agenda.

mattviatura

2,996 posts

69 months

[news] 
Tuesday 14th February 2012 quote quote all
gherkins said:
I have no problem, but an official scheduled prayer in a council meeting has political agenda.
First of all please don't accuse me of writing twaddle, I was trying (as a non-religious person) to make my point. Secondly please explain your political agenda point, I don't understand.

MX7

6,537 posts

43 months

[news] 
Tuesday 14th February 2012 quote quote all
gherkins said:
Twaddle. I won't deny tradition and history, but saying a prayer before a council meeting is wrong
If everyone in the room actively wants to pray before a meeting, who are you to tell them that they can't?

I think this is what Warsi was talking about.


ewenm

24,427 posts

114 months

[news] 
Tuesday 14th February 2012 quote quote all
The UK population is becoming less religious overall. Of course some of the religious will feel threatened by this change, especially if they are part of the establishment and see their influence/perceived importance waning.

Those who do feel threatened will do what people often do in that situation - attack those they feel are threatening them, regardless of whether the threat is real, benign, imaginary and/or inevitable.

Edited by ewenm on Tuesday 14th February 10:00

Mr E

14,126 posts

128 months

[news] 
Tuesday 14th February 2012 quote quote all
MX7 said:
If everyone in the room actively wants to pray before a meeting, who are you to tell them that they can't?
Indeed. I'll just choose to respect their wishes and be elsewhere for that bit of the meeting.
Now, if they *insist* that I'm present, we may have an issue.

ringram

12,205 posts

117 months

[news] 
Tuesday 14th February 2012 quote quote all
About time people wised up and figured out that fairy tales based on irrelevant belief systems now long dead are obsolete, inefficient and antagonistic.

Tooth Fairies, the easter bunny and santa claus are more believable than some magic bloke that didn't die, or one of the other many many stories one finds amongst the worlds religions.

Face the facts. Religion is dead. Long live truth and reality!
If mentally weak people need an emotional crutch thats up to them, but don't degenerate secular others for living in the read world.

My infallible 2p

gherkins

333 posts

100 months

[news] 
Tuesday 14th February 2012 quote quote all
If the prayer is part of the proceedings or the meeting is public, then there is something wrong. Those who disagree may feel forced to join in or marginalised. And it could be seen as playing an influencial role in any decisions taken - whether it is or not is irrelevant.
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