Scargill, still causing trouble
Discussion
crankedup said:
andymadmak said:
Are you going to jail those that tell lies about their plans? Because if you don't then you will get exactly what you've got now. FTR, I don't think Thatcher came to power with a plan to close UK coal mining industry. That's just left wing clap trap. What she did have however, was a plan and determination NOT to allow the miners unions to effectively hold the country to ransom and usurp the elected government of the day. The fact that the net effect was the decline of UK coal was down to Scargills disasterous "Light Brigade" charge onto the Conservative cannons of reform and resolve.
Also, I'd take issue with your view on the ship building industry and its decline in the UK. This, more than anything else had far more to do with the Unions and so little to do with the Chinese. The restrictive practices and down right bloody mindedness of the unions simply had to be seen to be believed.
Chinese Ship building has only really emerged in the last 15 years or so. Before that, it was the Koreans and the Japanese who took UK ship building jobs, , so the whole "they work for a bowl of rice" is not quite accurate (even if the diet is similar).
Indeed, I believe the UK still has the largest dry dock in Europe (at H&W)which is easily big enough to build a VLCC, (indeed they used to make them there) The UK could be competitive for high end ships in new niches - such as LNG and LPG carriers, but no one seems to be THAT interested.
I simply state what I believe, and yes those Politicians that lie should be held to account, why the hell not, they are paid to do a job. You clearly have no defence or argument when I talk about Thatcher not having the mandate to close our coal mines, simple as that. The fact Scargill stood up against the Government and thus the strikes was as a direct result of the assault by the Government on the miners livings. I say yet again, the Government should have been more imaginative in their policies regarding Unions at that time. I do agree the Unions played a large part in the demise of our industries, I have acknowledged this previously. Also, I'd take issue with your view on the ship building industry and its decline in the UK. This, more than anything else had far more to do with the Unions and so little to do with the Chinese. The restrictive practices and down right bloody mindedness of the unions simply had to be seen to be believed.
Chinese Ship building has only really emerged in the last 15 years or so. Before that, it was the Koreans and the Japanese who took UK ship building jobs, , so the whole "they work for a bowl of rice" is not quite accurate (even if the diet is similar).
Indeed, I believe the UK still has the largest dry dock in Europe (at H&W)which is easily big enough to build a VLCC, (indeed they used to make them there) The UK could be competitive for high end ships in new niches - such as LNG and LPG carriers, but no one seems to be THAT interested.
The pay rates are disgusting in those Countries you mention, we had the very best ship building quality in the world, so we agree on that. But we cannot compete against 50p per hour rates. This is why these Countries have grown so strongly over the decades, the labour pools are so vast their business can afford to pay peanuts and oppress and abuse workers, which is exactly what has happened. Are you in favour of such practices.
1, Thatcher did not have a mandate to close the mines. True enough. But did SHE close them, or did the market close them? I think you will find that the latter is the case. What Thatcher did was refuse to cow tow to the Union bullies who had dominated the UK political and industrial scene during the 1960s and 1970s. For that, she most certainly DID have a mandate.
"Scargill stood up to a direct assdault on miners livings" - really? I mean, really? From memory miners were rather well paid, so had no problems with their "livings". Trouble is, Scargill was itching for the fight. The country was not. It had had enough of 3 day weeks and candle lit power cuts. Thatcher was elected (in part) to deal with this. She took on the bullies and she won. pure and simple. The market did the rest.. Cheap imported coal helped keep heating prices down for the sick and elderly, and helped to keep power generation costs lower. The miners simply priced themselves out of the market through a combination of militancy, poor productivity and restrictive practices. You may find that hard to swallow, but it's the reality, and certainly more honest than some tin foil hat conspiracy theory of Thatcher hating the miners and wanting to end British Coal.
Secondly, in respect of the loss of ship building in the UK, I must say you are really, really barking up the wrong tree on this. The Chinese did NOT take this away from us. The Japanese, the Europeans and later the Korean did. The Europeans and the Japanese were hardly low wage economies! What they did was build better ships, faster, with fewer faults and for less money (because they were more efficient) We did not have to compete on 50p wage rates. Check out the big yards in Germany and France and Italy still building big ships. Hell, even the Scandinavians are still building ships despite their astronomical labour costs. You just have to face the fact that UK ship yards lost the plot thanks to some of the most bolshy, work shy unionised workers in the world. Trust me on this. I was at Vospers in the late 70s and even then I could see that the industry simply could not survive by going about things the way they did. 6 hours to change a light bulb! (the fitter had to move the carpet, then the carpenter had to remove the panel, then the electrician had to switch off the breaker, then the junior electrician could change the (normal screw fit) bulb, then the whole process reversed. Of course it took soooo much time to get each bod back to do their respective bit. But demarcation was absolute! 6 hours to change a bulb that ANY person with a brain could have done in 5 minutes. THATS what killed UK ship building. Keep kidding yourself that we lost out because others oppress and abuse their workers.. Just ignore the fact that Europe and the Japs still have a ship building industry and we don't - Oh and as for the Koreans, well, I suspect you've never been there... It aint no rice bowl society!
Johnnytheboy said:
I don’t think it took cheap foreign labour to send our shipyards under. It was as much to do with the unreliability of our workforce as their cost.
OK, I made a mistake China / Japan. But you agree that it was 'as much to do with our workforce as their cost'. It also pre-supposes that the quotes you refer to our factually correct and those making these remarks were correct in doing so. After all its been acknowledged just how sBrackets and elipses are where I've trimmed out long names and proper nouns that added nothing. I can of course reference this lot if anyone cares
te the Management in our Industries were back then!eldar said:
The electorate had a choice of several manifestos, and chose none. The eventual winners fudged both of theirs into one that more suited the actual economic situation in their collective view. Did the minority partner in the coalition come clean about tuition fees?
You also skipped the question about who would decide NHS funding and taxation if not parliament.
Correct, its what I said, Cameron does not have a mandate to carry out a major re-structure of the NHS. Fact is his a liar, he said 'no top down NHS re-structure'. Your final point is irrelevant to this argument and is merely a weak attempt at deflection.You also skipped the question about who would decide NHS funding and taxation if not parliament.
ClaphamGT3 said:
Crankedup needs a quick reminder of how our parliamentary Govt works. At a general election, all parties take their political philosophy to the electorate. For presentational ease, this is conventionally set out in a manifesto summarising the party's point of view on key issues. The manifesto is NOT a contract between the electorate and a party and once a party or parties form a Govt, they can ignore some or all of their manifesto as they please.
Yes, the Conservatives were - let's be charitable - delphic on health. They would however, quite legitimately, argue that they placed fixing the economy at the top of their agenda and, therefore, the electorate should have been perfectly aware that the NHS was going to come in for some swingeing reform
I need no lessons at all on this, a HONEST Political Party will be elected upon its manifesto and implement that manifesto (as much as reasonably possible). The manifesto is that Parties Political beliefs and desires for the Country. You seem to be thinking they can present any old sYes, the Conservatives were - let's be charitable - delphic on health. They would however, quite legitimately, argue that they placed fixing the economy at the top of their agenda and, therefore, the electorate should have been perfectly aware that the NHS was going to come in for some swingeing reform
te and then throw it in the bin. Well that is what is happening and the reason why a huge majority of people no longer vote.
crankedup said:
Trommel said:
Baron Robens (Labour peer and a trade unionist) shut more than 400 pits in the '60s.
And the reason being was?But he was hardly a socialist. He was Gaitskill-esque. He had many a fight with Wilson, quite a few reaching the newspapers.
The pits that were closed were on the grounds not only of uneconomic but too costly to bring up to a safe standard. Robens was big on safety but his impact wasn't that great. Funny bloke evidently, universally disliked it would appear. He could have been in Wilson's place.
Interesting article in this weeks Economist regarding how many Asian countries are sending their Govt ministers and civil servants to Korea, to be trained in how Korea has become so successful. Doesn't sound like a rice bowl economy, but more like one that perhaps we should be emulating.
crankedup said:
Johnnytheboy said:
I don’t think it took cheap foreign labour to send our shipyards under. It was as much to do with the unreliability of our workforce as their cost.
OK, I made a mistake China / Japan. But you agree that it was 'as much to do with our workforce as their cost'. It also pre-supposes that the quotes you refer to our factually correct and those making these remarks were correct in doing so. After all its been acknowledged just how sBrackets and elipses are where I've trimmed out long names and proper nouns that added nothing. I can of course reference this lot if anyone cares
te the Management in our Industries were back then!
2 Knowing you were likely to blame "management" (that old union bogeyman/scapegoat) I didn't quote "management"; I quoted customers. As hard as it is for someone looking at the world through a union prism, industries need customers to survive.
3. Were they correct? I imagine companies the size of these didn't transfer their entire ship procurement from the UK to continental Europe and Japan without a little due diligence.
crankedup said:
Correct, its what I said, Cameron does not have a mandate to carry out a major re-structure of the NHS. Fact is his a liar, he said 'no top down NHS re-structure'. Your final point is irrelevant to this argument and is merely a weak attempt at deflection.
He'll fit in nicely with the party of tuition fees lies and perjury. And no, I don't want your unelected and unaccountable comittee of the great and the good running the NHS.
telecat said:
After giving a great performance as a Kamikaze during the miners strike Scargill is now trying to bleed the NUM to death by continuing to claim expenses from the union which now has less than 1,800 members. He is suing them for £15,000 for a new car, Phone Bills and various other expenses. The NUM have decided want his London Flat. Now there is a man feathering his own nest
Back on topic, just seen on the local news that Arthur has won his case. crankedup said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
Crankedup needs a quick reminder of how our parliamentary Govt works. At a general election, all parties take their political philosophy to the electorate. For presentational ease, this is conventionally set out in a manifesto summarising the party's point of view on key issues. The manifesto is NOT a contract between the electorate and a party and once a party or parties form a Govt, they can ignore some or all of their manifesto as they please.
Yes, the Conservatives were - let's be charitable - delphic on health. They would however, quite legitimately, argue that they placed fixing the economy at the top of their agenda and, therefore, the electorate should have been perfectly aware that the NHS was going to come in for some swingeing reform
I need no lessons at all on this, a HONEST Political Party will be elected upon its manifesto and implement that manifesto (as much as reasonably possible). The manifesto is that Parties Political beliefs and desires for the Country. You seem to be thinking they can present any old sYes, the Conservatives were - let's be charitable - delphic on health. They would however, quite legitimately, argue that they placed fixing the economy at the top of their agenda and, therefore, the electorate should have been perfectly aware that the NHS was going to come in for some swingeing reform
te and then throw it in the bin. Well that is what is happening and the reason why a huge majority of people no longer vote.I for one would go further and say that I simply cannot understand why anyone in their right mind would argue against NHS reform. Anyone who does will, through their own well intentioned stupidity, destroy the very organisation they want to protect.
soxboy said:
telecat said:
After giving a great performance as a Kamikaze during the miners strike Scargill is now trying to bleed the NUM to death by continuing to claim expenses from the union which now has less than 1,800 members. He is suing them for £15,000 for a new car, Phone Bills and various other expenses. The NUM have decided want his London Flat. Now there is a man feathering his own nest
Back on topic, just seen on the local news that Arthur has won his case. If this was a banker i guess it would be headline news in all the media for weeks.
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