Scargill, still causing trouble
Discussion
Globs said:
Derek Smith said:
turbobloke said:
Labour's idea of work these days is a local authority outreach climate change diversity coordinator.
We need lots of those.
There was little doubt that the plan to increase the jobless total, eventually all but three times the level they inherited, was in place before they hired Saatchi and Saatchi. I'm all for a laugh but that was well out of order. Clever, but dishonest and immoral.
The picture is pretty much spot on though, thanks to NuLabour much of the UK's work effort goes into paying interest on government loans.
What a waste.
The fact labour were exactly the same, but less imaginative, is not relevant.
Derek Smith said:
I'm not pro labour, and certainly anti NuLabour but the point remains: Thatcher, or at least her election team, promised that they would sort out the 1m unemployed. It was their major advertising feature and it was lies.
The fact labour were exactly the same, but less imaginative, is not relevant.
On a slight tangent, what would that tell you?The fact labour were exactly the same, but less imaginative, is not relevant.
Only that all politicians are the same.
In a democracy, the electorate are surely to blame since electoral turnout is always way less than 100%..
Something to do with the propaganda [politically inspired tosh] we are continually fed maybe?
So surely the real question is, and has always been, how do you inspire everyone to vote?
If we could achieve that, politics would change overnight, and for the good of all. But not really in the main party's interest though.
Edited by pacman1 on Tuesday 21st February 21:52
Derek Smith said:
turbobloke said:
Labour's idea of work these days is a local authority outreach climate change diversity coordinator.
We need lots of those.
Here's another dose of honesty from the Conservatives, attacked just as vehemently yet just like Labour Isn't Workng it proved to be spot on.
Grauniad again, just for added effect
turbobloke said:
Here's another dose of honesty from the Conservatives, attacked just as vehemently yet just like Labour Isn't Workng it proved to be spot on.
Grauniad again, just for added effect
Yes, sadly history has proven the seer-like prophecy of that picture.Grauniad again, just for added effect
In fact, Blair was even worse than this poster, quite a feat.
ClaphamGT3 said:
Always think that its a shame that Major vetoed the 'Faust' advert in the 1997 campaign - possibly the most prophetic political advert ever
I've never seen that before:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcxzBr-Wihg
Not sure whether that's Campbell or Mandelson he's talking to
otolith said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
Always think that its a shame that Major vetoed the 'Faust' advert in the 1997 campaign - possibly the most prophetic political advert ever
I've never seen that before:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcxzBr-Wihg
Not sure whether that's Campbell or Mandelson he's talking to
andymadmak said:
I run a high end Marine Engineering company, matey. I try as much as possible to place work in the UK. It is true to say that in many cases we can, now, do a fab job. World beating even. But I don't think we'll see a return of high end ship building here. Ever. The damage has already been done. With my hand on my heart, based on what I have seen, I am 1000000% certain that the Unions in the shipyards in the 60s, 70s and 80s brought this situation about.
You keep repeating that "we cannot compete against the wage rates of these countries". That is simply wrong. If anything, our wage costs might even be a little lower than some of the competition these days. The raw materials costs are pretty much the same across the world. What differs, and what made us uncompetitive were the working practices, and these drove all the customers away. Now, I doubt we have the expertise to compete with the Japanese. They can plan, build and launch a 300,000 dwt ship in 14 months. They can do it to a budget, and they can deliver it largely fault free. We can't.
And to address your jobs for life point - German workers were prepared to redeploy and acquire new skills in response to new working practices and technologies. Thus it was easier to give job assurances. In the UK the Unions wanted job assurances, but only insofar as their members could be retained forever on the same tasks! I think another poster already highlighted what happened when the new automatic welding processes were introduced!
Face it Crankedup. The loss of ship building had nowt to do with Governments of any colour and everything to do with Unions and the workers
With respect,can I just remind I am referring to the loss of our industries over thirty years back and more. That is what I refer to as 'wage competition'and a major reason we lost much of our major heavy manufacturing. I concede Unions did play a part in the downfall, but only a part. Some was bad management and some was Government. I just see that Management of the day was poor and the Government ineffectual, and for these reasons I say that are partly to blame. Sorry we are not going to agree on this one.You keep repeating that "we cannot compete against the wage rates of these countries". That is simply wrong. If anything, our wage costs might even be a little lower than some of the competition these days. The raw materials costs are pretty much the same across the world. What differs, and what made us uncompetitive were the working practices, and these drove all the customers away. Now, I doubt we have the expertise to compete with the Japanese. They can plan, build and launch a 300,000 dwt ship in 14 months. They can do it to a budget, and they can deliver it largely fault free. We can't.
And to address your jobs for life point - German workers were prepared to redeploy and acquire new skills in response to new working practices and technologies. Thus it was easier to give job assurances. In the UK the Unions wanted job assurances, but only insofar as their members could be retained forever on the same tasks! I think another poster already highlighted what happened when the new automatic welding processes were introduced!
Face it Crankedup. The loss of ship building had nowt to do with Governments of any colour and everything to do with Unions and the workers
Edited by andymadmak on Tuesday 21st February 17:35
On a positive note, we do still manufacture submarines, and they are the best sub's in the world bar none.
We can still turn out some very fine aircraft also, and we now benefit from an enlightened highly skilled staff,Management working together. Thank goodness the bad old days are behind us.
Balmoral said:
hat may have been the case when Bondsan was tazzing around Tokyo in a 2000GT with one of Tanaka's girls, but certainly not now.
A 'Job for Life' in the Asian economy's is very much a sixties/seventies thing. It ended in Korea in 1997, when their citizens were queuing up at the banks for hours on end to give their gold, other valuables and savings to the government (can you imagine us Brits doing that, or the Greeks right now?). I myself was assured of a 'Job for Life' (and for my children) by a certain Mr Kim in 1995, but it was all over by 2000
In Japan the concept of a 'Job for Life' ended about ten years earlier at least (just about the time the Koreans took over) and salary men pretended to get up and go to work each day before finally committing Seppuku on a sharp briefcase.
Exactly, but we are debating the scenario from thirty/forty+ years back when we were losing our heavy manufacturing to foreign competition.A 'Job for Life' in the Asian economy's is very much a sixties/seventies thing. It ended in Korea in 1997, when their citizens were queuing up at the banks for hours on end to give their gold, other valuables and savings to the government (can you imagine us Brits doing that, or the Greeks right now?). I myself was assured of a 'Job for Life' (and for my children) by a certain Mr Kim in 1995, but it was all over by 2000
In Japan the concept of a 'Job for Life' ended about ten years earlier at least (just about the time the Koreans took over) and salary men pretended to get up and go to work each day before finally committing Seppuku on a sharp briefcase.
Edited by Balmoral on Tuesday 21st February 18:01
don4l said:
I am utterly gobsmacked!
Really!
Wasn't it just yesterday that you proved that you were as honest as Huhne when you were spreading lies about Norman Tebbit?
When you were challenged, you claimed that you could actually remember what Tebbit had said... which was obviously another LIE.
What is it that makes all LibDems bent as nine bob notes?
Don
--
I confessed I had made an honest mistake in the quotation 'get on yer bike' you could do the decent thing and acknowledge that? But I then went on to contest that the actual words Tebbit used amounted to the same out of touch claptrap nonsense anyway. I also gave some examples of why I say that. So if you are going to post remarks such as yours I suggest you post in context and fully explain my previous position. So far from me lying and being bent, I would suggest you should look at yourself and your selective quotes and accusations which are simply false.Really!
Wasn't it just yesterday that you proved that you were as honest as Huhne when you were spreading lies about Norman Tebbit?
When you were challenged, you claimed that you could actually remember what Tebbit had said... which was obviously another LIE.
What is it that makes all LibDems bent as nine bob notes?
Don
--
crankedup said:
With respect,can I just remind I am referring to the loss of our industries over thirty years back and more. That is what I refer to as 'wage competition'and a major reason we lost much of our major heavy manufacturing.
Yes, I do understand the point you were making... and it is still wrong! Or are you seriously saying that the Italians, French, Germans, Japanese and Scandinavians were all paying "rice bowl" level wages 30 years ago? crankedup said:
On a positive note, we do still manufacture submarines, and they are the best sub's in the world bar none.
We can still turn out some very fine aircraft also, and we now benefit from an enlightened highly skilled staff,Management working together. Thank goodness the bad old days are behind us.
Do we actually make any whole aircraft now? I thought we just made bits for them these days.. We can still turn out some very fine aircraft also, and we now benefit from an enlightened highly skilled staff,Management working together. Thank goodness the bad old days are behind us.
And yes, I am glad the bad old days are gone.. thanks to Mrs Thatchers reforms of Union legislation...... (except of course in sections of the public sector that still think that the nation has money to burn)
crankedup said:
andymadmak said:
I run a high end Marine Engineering company, matey. I try as much as possible to place work in the UK. It is true to say that in many cases we can, now, do a fab job. World beating even. But I don't think we'll see a return of high end ship building here. Ever. The damage has already been done. With my hand on my heart, based on what I have seen, I am 1000000% certain that the Unions in the shipyards in the 60s, 70s and 80s brought this situation about.
You keep repeating that "we cannot compete against the wage rates of these countries". That is simply wrong. If anything, our wage costs might even be a little lower than some of the competition these days. The raw materials costs are pretty much the same across the world. What differs, and what made us uncompetitive were the working practices, and these drove all the customers away. Now, I doubt we have the expertise to compete with the Japanese. They can plan, build and launch a 300,000 dwt ship in 14 months. They can do it to a budget, and they can deliver it largely fault free. We can't.
And to address your jobs for life point - German workers were prepared to redeploy and acquire new skills in response to new working practices and technologies. Thus it was easier to give job assurances. In the UK the Unions wanted job assurances, but only insofar as their members could be retained forever on the same tasks! I think another poster already highlighted what happened when the new automatic welding processes were introduced!
Face it Crankedup. The loss of ship building had nowt to do with Governments of any colour and everything to do with Unions and the workers
With respect,can I just remind I am referring to the loss of our industries over thirty years back and more. That is what I refer to as 'wage competition'and a major reason we lost much of our major heavy manufacturing. I concede Unions did play a part in the downfall, but only a part. Some was bad management and some was Government. I just see that Management of the day was poor and the Government ineffectual, and for these reasons I say that are partly to blame. Sorry we are not going to agree on this one.You keep repeating that "we cannot compete against the wage rates of these countries". That is simply wrong. If anything, our wage costs might even be a little lower than some of the competition these days. The raw materials costs are pretty much the same across the world. What differs, and what made us uncompetitive were the working practices, and these drove all the customers away. Now, I doubt we have the expertise to compete with the Japanese. They can plan, build and launch a 300,000 dwt ship in 14 months. They can do it to a budget, and they can deliver it largely fault free. We can't.
And to address your jobs for life point - German workers were prepared to redeploy and acquire new skills in response to new working practices and technologies. Thus it was easier to give job assurances. In the UK the Unions wanted job assurances, but only insofar as their members could be retained forever on the same tasks! I think another poster already highlighted what happened when the new automatic welding processes were introduced!
Face it Crankedup. The loss of ship building had nowt to do with Governments of any colour and everything to do with Unions and the workers
Edited by andymadmak on Tuesday 21st February 17:35
On a positive note, we do still manufacture submarines, and they are the best sub's in the world bar none.
We can still turn out some very fine aircraft also, and we now benefit from an enlightened highly skilled staff,Management working together. Thank goodness the bad old days are behind us.
And just to prove it, here's a (bad) photo of me with John Rosamond, socialist, trade unionist, welder and former chairman of the Coop. He much admired my Thinderbird
crankedup said:
don4l said:
I am utterly gobsmacked!
Really!
Wasn't it just yesterday that you proved that you were as honest as Huhne when you were spreading lies about Norman Tebbit?
When you were challenged, you claimed that you could actually remember what Tebbit had said... which was obviously another LIE.
What is it that makes all LibDems bent as nine bob notes?
Don
--
I confessed I had made an honest mistake in the quotation 'get on yer bike' you could do the decent thing and acknowledge that? But I then went on to contest that the actual words Tebbit used amounted to the same out of touch claptrap nonsense anyway. I also gave some examples of why I say that. So if you are going to post remarks such as yours I suggest you post in context and fully explain my previous position. So far from me lying and being bent, I would suggest you should look at yourself and your selective quotes and accusations which are simply false.Really!
Wasn't it just yesterday that you proved that you were as honest as Huhne when you were spreading lies about Norman Tebbit?
When you were challenged, you claimed that you could actually remember what Tebbit had said... which was obviously another LIE.
What is it that makes all LibDems bent as nine bob notes?
Don
--
Tebbit used the phrase in the context of the 1981 riots, saying that instead of rioting, the unemployed would better following the example of his father in the 1930s who "...didn't riot, he got on his bike and didn't stop pedalling until he found a job". A perfectly reasonable point of view to anyone in their right mind.
I suppose we shouldn't be surprised at your attitude though - your sort always hate it when "working class" people repudiate your politics of envy and division and actually get themselves on in life; its why the likes of Lord Tebbit and Baroness Thatcher are such hate figures for the intellectual left - they've proved how wrong you are.
turbobloke said:
Derek Smith said:
turbobloke said:
Labour's idea of work these days is a local authority outreach climate change diversity coordinator.
We need lots of those.
Here's another dose of honesty from the Conservatives, attacked just as vehemently yet just like Labour Isn't Workng it proved to be spot on.
Grauniad again, just for added effect
The odd thing is that the advert was praised for its influence on the public perception of both labour and tories and putting into the mind of the electorate that the tories would bring down unemployment.
I'm not so sure. Labour at that time were fighting amongst themselves in a way that was quite unusual, even for a political party. I remember discussions at the time with committed labour supporters who were jumping ship to vote elsewhere. Labour under Tony Benn took the party to the left and allowed trotsky influence all the way through. Some say it wasn't intentional but then that would make him stupid, which he wasn't. It is what generated the gang of four and the resurgence of the third party. And it was the humiliating move by the gange of four away from labour that put many voters off, the advert notwithstanding.
If there was a leader of any party of the stature of Shirley Williams today I'd vote for it. It is such a shame that there is no one even close. The fault with the gang of four is that they didn't put her as the head.
Thatcher was lucky in many ways. She was at certain times in her early years the most unpopular PM ever. Events allowed her to shine. It is ironic that her response to the IRA bombing of the Grand Hotel in Brighton probably remained in many voters' minds for years. It was iconic. Her speech from the steps of the ruined hotel was majestic. Had it not been for that and the Falklands she'd probably have been kicked out by her colleagues as an electoral liability.
The advert didn't really help much getting them elected. I think in those days everyone knew that the tories were the party of high unemployment. One of their MPs once said on TV that to have a stable society there needed to be 7 million unemployed. By stable he menat more money for the rich. With that number of people doing nothing this country would obviously not be stable.
I was in adsetting for years and I reckon that political adverts are a waste of time and money.
ClaphamGT3 said:
"Out of touch clap-trap nonsense"?! Honestly, what planet do you live on?!
Tebbit used the phrase in the context of the 1981 riots, saying that instead of rioting, the unemployed would better following the example of his father in the 1930s who "...didn't riot, he got on his bike and didn't stop pedalling until he found a job". A perfectly reasonable point of view to anyone in their right mind.
I suppose we shouldn't be surprised at your attitude though - your sort always hate it when "working class" people repudiate your politics of envy and division and actually get themselves on in life; its why the likes of Lord Tebbit and Baroness Thatcher are such hate figures for the intellectual left - they've proved how wrong you are.
'My sort'? if you had read through the posts on the thread you would see how inappropriate your remarks are. This is simply a minor political internet debate on the politics of thirty and forty years ago. You seem to have missed that point!Tebbit used the phrase in the context of the 1981 riots, saying that instead of rioting, the unemployed would better following the example of his father in the 1930s who "...didn't riot, he got on his bike and didn't stop pedalling until he found a job". A perfectly reasonable point of view to anyone in their right mind.
I suppose we shouldn't be surprised at your attitude though - your sort always hate it when "working class" people repudiate your politics of envy and division and actually get themselves on in life; its why the likes of Lord Tebbit and Baroness Thatcher are such hate figures for the intellectual left - they've proved how wrong you are.
Personalisation of thread debate is only used in desperation by 'your sort'.
Andy Zarse said:
Tell me, as an aside, do you remember of the Triumph motorcycle cooperative in Meriden set up by Tony Benn in 1974? It's a particular subject of mine and I'm researching it with a friend to write an article. There are some things I could tell you about working practices. You are right about bad management and bad Govt. But you can't exclude the workers from blame I can assure you.
And just to prove it, here's a (bad) photo of me with John Rosamond, socialist, trade unionist, welder and former chairman of the Coop. He much admired my Thinderbird
Bloody good bit of historical imaginary.And just to prove it, here's a (bad) photo of me with John Rosamond, socialist, trade unionist, welder and former chairman of the Coop. He much admired my Thinderbird
Indeed I do recall the workers co-operative, but know of very little as to how the arrangement worked. Like all of the British motorcycle industry the owners of the businesses sat back on their laurals and refused to invest and develop the products - welcome Japanese motorcycles. No I do not exclude workers from the responsibility toward their employers of the time, many mis-guided and, ultimately, paid a very heavy price for that. Great to see how Triumph have now flourished and have become a highly regarded motorcycle manufacturer. My pal who lives in S.France, his Son has a new 'Trumpet' and the interest that the French bike enthusiasts show regarding that bike is great, and its made in Britain.
The success Triumph are enjoying on the race circuit is fantastic, my lad was going into the Triumph Triple series at one point but his job got in the way of his race ambitions on that occasion. I will look forward to perhaps having a read of your work when its complete, Motorcycle News? Good luck with it.
And its good to get away from arguing for a while.
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