Scargill, still causing trouble
Discussion
crankedup said:
Unions in the U.K. simply brought some much needed balance and then of course over stepped the line, during the 1970's, of common sense.
In the 70s?Do you have any idea how many days labour were lost due to industrial action over pay during the Blitz?
That's right, during the f
king Blitz. When people were dying to defend democracy, several coal mines were on strike over pay. Or if that seems a bit far fetched, in the late 40s the UK tried to invest some of its Marshall Plan funds in modernising the ship building industry to try and stem the flow of work abroad (caused in large part by the increased costs and unreliable lead times due to strike action).
One method of choice was to bring in automated welding machines, like the Germans and Japs were doing. The shipbuilding unions' response? To successfully demand that - even though these machines required about 20% of the manpower to do the same amount of welding - there was no change in the number of welders employed per ship. That's right, shipyards were employing four welders to stand there while one operated the new machines.
Now we have no ship building industry that isn't propped up by autarkic defence projects. Funny that.
crankedup said:
The BiB wanted the strike to last as long as possible, why not they were certainly being well paid and who could blame them. Scargill was a chump the way he played his cards, who knows what may have become of the industry if he hadn't been such a militant.
Looking back, you have to question the sanity of a demagogue who called a strike in March 1984, telling his acolytes that coal stocks already at the power stations would rapidly run down, and that 'General Winter' would look after the rest of the problem after that. 'General Winter', of course, was still nine months ahead, by which time the stroke was crumbling fast, and stocks were still adequate.crankedup said:
I agree with the lack of education philosophy and kids followed Dad into coal mining. Indeed it was a generationally expected, but it is no different to many other industries of the time. Railway workers,
dockers, steel workers in fact it was the norm' most kids followed Dads footsteps. My guess is that many kids today would give their eye teeth to do that now.
If the mines were still open, they would be manned by Poles while the local youths questioned the point of going down the pit when they're better off on benefits.dockers, steel workers in fact it was the norm' most kids followed Dads footsteps. My guess is that many kids today would give their eye teeth to do that now.
otolith said:
crankedup said:
I agree with the lack of education philosophy and kids followed Dad into coal mining. Indeed it was a generationally expected, but it is no different to many other industries of the time. Railway workers,
dockers, steel workers in fact it was the norm' most kids followed Dads footsteps. My guess is that many kids today would give their eye teeth to do that now.
If the mines were still open, they would be manned by Poles while the local youths questioned the point of going down the pit when they're better off on benefits.dockers, steel workers in fact it was the norm' most kids followed Dads footsteps. My guess is that many kids today would give their eye teeth to do that now.
turbobloke said:
otolith said:
crankedup said:
I agree with the lack of education philosophy and kids followed Dad into coal mining. Indeed it was a generationally expected, but it is no different to many other industries of the time. Railway workers,
dockers, steel workers in fact it was the norm' most kids followed Dads footsteps. My guess is that many kids today would give their eye teeth to do that now.
If the mines were still open, they would be manned by Poles while the local youths questioned the point of going down the pit when they're better off on benefits.dockers, steel workers in fact it was the norm' most kids followed Dads footsteps. My guess is that many kids today would give their eye teeth to do that now.
NuLabour: Shafting the working man.
crankedup said:
You do not seem to be reading my posts, once again I acknowledged the Nissan plant and its success. Also acknowledged the hopeless management and Union power in our old industries. Tell me would you prefer all industry to be owned by any other Country rather then the U.K.? Why do you use the line 'your beloved Unions'? I am convinced that some of you do not read what I post but simply just make up posts that are just trolling.
Very good chap 
.I am all for a free market and may the best man win. I hazard a guess you have never run a business......
British industry died for a reason, which is a crying shame, the unions played a huge part in its down fall. I guess the unions would stop overseas investment if they could and cause disruption for the sake of it?
I have huge respect for any overseas company that has heavily invested in the UK and its people, sadly i would love to witness UK based companies competing with them but accept the destruction unions and previous governments caused, life goes on and things change.....hardly trolling? Especially when these companies have been excellent for my own business growth. I could not even imagine dealing with the likes of BL etc and trying the same in the 1970's.
I have read your posts, do not agree with you that is all. Did you watch that Video?
AAGR said:
crankedup said:
The BiB wanted the strike to last as long as possible, why not they were certainly being well paid and who could blame them. Scargill was a chump the way he played his cards, who knows what may have become of the industry if he hadn't been such a militant.
Looking back, you have to question the sanity of a demagogue who called a strike in March 1984, telling his acolytes that coal stocks already at the power stations would rapidly run down, and that 'General Winter' would look after the rest of the problem after that. 'General Winter', of course, was still nine months ahead, by which time the stroke was crumbling fast, and stocks were still adequate.The timing of the strike was excusable as Scargill was hoping that the steel workers and the dockers would join the strike. As indeed were many commentators. Some suggest even Thatcher. Various reasons have been put forward as to why not, none of them really convincing. The majority seem to suggest that they were against the Trotsky style of politics that Scargill was promoting. Certainly he was not liked in the union movement. It is possible that they were a little nervouse of Scargill taking over the TUC. Others suggest that they were frightened for their jobs. If Scargill had won then the resulting free-for-all would have been damaging for them.
The TUC in those days was under a fair bit of pressure from the lurch to the left which had hit labour and the local authorities. They were a total rabble then, completely off the wall with corruption in local government that was remarkable even for LA levels.
Had Thatcher lost, and it was a close run thing, certainly in the early days, then we would be in a very different country today.
It took the oil revenues to pay for the battle. Not all of it but a fair bit. The rest, together with that from the sell-offs, was wasted on trying to get a share and property owning electorate and so pull votes for the tories.
A bit of a curate's egg was our Maggie.
crankedup said:
Also I do not recall the Government having the mandate to shut down our coalfields, much like the current Government not having a mandate to impose major structural changes in the NHS.
The government proposes actions, parliament debates it and votes. Legislation either passes, or not. How can a government elected in free elections not have a mandate? Exactly who would you have decide how much the NHS spends, and how that money is raised?
crankedup said:
Globs said:
Yup - that's NuLabour to a tee, with comrades Balls, Brown and Bliar dishing out most of the abuse.
How I despair for those using selective edits out of context to make random comments. But I do not disagree that New Labour in their final term of office were a disaster. Prior to that even the Conservatives supported some of New Labours spending plans, even up to 2007.I was going to quote loads of the stuff in this thread and possibly get the Ban hammer.
I have thought better.
If you have more than 4 posts per page, I may just dip out and not even read the remainder.
Sorry - imagine I have just taken a polite but obvious leave from the face to face chat in the pub!
A leaving
ps - Without spoiling my own dignity (
) do you really believe everything you post?pps - Mods; is that OK or do I need to edit it?
Slaav said:
crankedup said:
Globs said:
Yup - that's NuLabour to a tee, with comrades Balls, Brown and Bliar dishing out most of the abuse.
How I despair for those using selective edits out of context to make random comments. But I do not disagree that New Labour in their final term of office were a disaster. Prior to that even the Conservatives supported some of New Labours spending plans, even up to 2007.turbobloke said:
otolith said:
crankedup said:
I agree with the lack of education philosophy and kids followed Dad into coal mining. Indeed it was a generationally expected, but it is no different to many other industries of the time. Railway workers,
dockers, steel workers in fact it was the norm' most kids followed Dads footsteps. My guess is that many kids today would give their eye teeth to do that now.
If the mines were still open, they would be manned by Poles while the local youths questioned the point of going down the pit when they're better off on benefits.dockers, steel workers in fact it was the norm' most kids followed Dads footsteps. My guess is that many kids today would give their eye teeth to do that now.
Apache said:
turbobloke said:
otolith said:
crankedup said:
I agree with the lack of education philosophy and kids followed Dad into coal mining. Indeed it was a generationally expected, but it is no different to many other industries of the time. Railway workers,
dockers, steel workers in fact it was the norm' most kids followed Dads footsteps. My guess is that many kids today would give their eye teeth to do that now.
If the mines were still open, they would be manned by Poles while the local youths questioned the point of going down the pit when they're better off on benefits.dockers, steel workers in fact it was the norm' most kids followed Dads footsteps. My guess is that many kids today would give their eye teeth to do that now.
Also the work is rather hard compared to Jeremy Kyle from the sofa so the differential would need to be rather large, £100k might do it. So, no chance.
Willy Nilly said:
crankedup said:
Thatcher poured millions of pounds into defeating Unions in a attempt to satisfy the political agend.
The political agenda being that the country gets run by democratically elected people, not the unions? pacman1 said:
Slaav said:
crankedup said:
Globs said:
Yup - that's NuLabour to a tee, with comrades Balls, Brown and Bliar dishing out most of the abuse.
How I despair for those using selective edits out of context to make random comments. But I do not disagree that New Labour in their final term of office were a disaster. Prior to that even the Conservatives supported some of New Labours spending plans, even up to 2007.I knew what I wanted to say but it wasn't pleasant so tried insinuating it. It didn't work.
Oh well.
I don't think or believe that Crankedup can honestly believe what he says and professes to believe. I felt it was and is getting tiresome. I wanted to call him a Troll but decided to just think it....
As I say, sorry - it didn't work or make much sense.
Will try harder next time
crankedup said:
Living through the closures of pits simply as another joe public, I do not agree that miners were hated at all on the scale that you suggest, it seemed to me that they were holding the moral high ground and attracted public sympathy rather than hate.
It possibly seemed that way to you because you take a left wing stance and are naturally sympathetic to unions. All lefties think they and their so called principals are held in high regard by the general public no matter the suffering their selfishness cause to their fellow man. This is a delusion.The pit closures came ten years after the strike was over. This was on John Major's watch, and were orchestrated by a Tory Leftie hated by almost everyone; Michael Hesletine. The manner in which it was conducted was appalling and did garner some sympathy. However, I was referring to hatred of the miners in the 70's and 80's. They had very little support beyond Labour party and union activists, and even then...
Edited by Andy Zarse on Monday 20th February 10:02
Johnnytheboy said:
Derek Smith said:
Most unions are fine examples of democracy at work. There are pro tory unions as there are pro labour, or at least socialist, which lets out labour I suppose. In the main most unions membership is about as middle of the road as the population at large because, one would assume, they are the population at large.
That's why they fought so hard to retain the closed shop and to keep out strike ballots. The demonising of unions by government and the media, particularly the newspapers, making out that all they are after is to bring down the government, is way off beam. I've worked for a company that was in financial difficulty and the union suspended normal working practices for a period to try and overcome the problem. During the three day week my union did not stick with the rulebook.
The RMT is not typical, at least at the moment.
When I was in the committee of my union the thing that the father of the chapel had problems with was stopping the members working to rule and such after the bosses ignored agreements. Whilst I have only worked in one unionised job I know that this is the norm. The behaviour of the motor unions was held I contempt by most of the blokes I worked with. Mind you, they had the same contempt for the firms' management as well.
The split in the working class in my youth, before the ultra left swing of labour and Thatcher, was around 40 : 60 to labour. During labour's left lurch it was the other way around. It was the working class that voted Thatcher in.
Globs said:
They were an unmitigated disaster in all bar the first half of the first term, where they followed the tory budget and the UK government actually made a brief profit then.
Plus the comment was in context because you were describing the abuse from the people at the top upon the people at the bottom. By punishing and taxing the working man, stealing his pensions and giving away his rights and money to the EU that's exactly what NuLabour did. Punish the people at the bottom. And that's without stting on the unemployed by creating a benefits trap for them, which knackers them (and costs the working man even more.
NuLabour were the worst thing that happened for the worker in many decades, and their union backers were as much to blame in crushing the honest worker under their elite boots. A disgusting, imoral party, all of them scum.
Clearly the majority of the Country disagreed with you and that majority are working people.Plus the comment was in context because you were describing the abuse from the people at the top upon the people at the bottom. By punishing and taxing the working man, stealing his pensions and giving away his rights and money to the EU that's exactly what NuLabour did. Punish the people at the bottom. And that's without s
tting on the unemployed by creating a benefits trap for them, which knackers them (and costs the working man even more.NuLabour were the worst thing that happened for the worker in many decades, and their union backers were as much to blame in crushing the honest worker under their elite boots. A disgusting, imoral party, all of them scum.
It was a Conservative Government that took us into the E.U.
Look at the Conservative Government records and see that every time they are in power the unemployment rate rises dramatically. Tebbit revealed it all with his 'get on a bike' rubbish and 'unemployment is a price worth paying' which demonstrates where the Conservatives place their values. The Conservative Government introduced the pension contribution holidays for Companies, effectively letting those Companies nick money off the workers, just as bad as Labour but different tactic. The 'Maxwell' case, again stealing from the working man in the form of using the pensions fund as a personal wage booster for himself, such were the lax Corporate Business laws, again under the Conservatives.
Even now the Conservatives are letting us down with their lack of vision and growth plans for the Country. We have a Chancellor wandering around with a dazed look about him, his introduced the plans from his book and that's it, there appears to be nothing more to come from him.
As for elitist and immoral, that's rich, nothing more immoral than a bunch of non working millionaires sat on the front bench right now, none of which have done a days work in their lives.
When have the Conservatives actually helped the working man. TBH its a pity that more people do not vote for Lib-Dems.
crankedup said:
As for elitist and immoral, that's rich, nothing more immoral than a bunch of non working millionaires sat on the front bench right now, none of which have done a days work in their lives.
Which bench would that be, there is no distinction IMO as for voting Lib Dem? you need your bumps feelingGassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff