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Author Discussion

Jessicus

309 posts

29 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
Countdown said:
You may well be right - ie it's quite possible that they used the "white girls are worthless" to justify (to themselves) what they were doing. But, to a degree, all criminals will internally justify their crime. Its probably no different to a rapist thinking that his victim was "asking for it" or a paedophile using the sexualisation of pre-pubescent girls as justification/vindication.
Again, you're trying to provide a justification for these beasts, rather than condemnation.

We're probably quite close in thinking to do with these criminals, but your stubborn refusal to acknowledge that there is a particular problem with Pakistani Muslims and their approach to non-Muslims is really quite strange.

Isn't it true that non-muslims (especially Christians) in Islamic countries, such as Pakistan, have less legal rights than Muslims? Isn't that demonstrating that non-muslims are worth less than a muslim?

Isn't that what's taught in Madrassas across this country? That Muslims are worth more than non-muslims?

Justayellowbadge

33,165 posts

125 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
Countdown said:
Again - what would you want "us" to do? I'm genuinely open to suggestions.
Accept that the problem exists.

Countdown

9,504 posts

79 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
Justayellowbadge said:
Countdown said:
Again - what would you want "us" to do? I'm genuinely open to suggestions.
Accept that the problem exists.
More than happy to do so. The evidence is there for all to see. And then?

Countdown

9,504 posts

79 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
Jessicus said:
Again, you're trying to provide a justification for these beasts, rather than condemnation.
I've recommended castration for the perpetrators and public humiliation for their "nearest and dearest" But you don't think that's condemnation?

With regards to my response to Mr_B, trying to suggest why this happened specifically to young white girls in care is not justification for it happening.

Jessicus said:
We're probably quite close in thinking to do with these criminals, but your stubborn refusal to acknowledge that there is a particular problem with Pakistani Muslims and their approach to non-Muslims is really quite strange.
Your fixation that this particular crime is a result of the attitudes of muslims to non-muslims is quite strange. I've lost count of the number of times I've explained that things such as alcohol, drugs, and extra-marital sex are severely frowned upon in Islam. But you seem absolutely determined to prove a causal link.

I gave a link earlier where there was a group of predominantly white men who were involved in this type of crime. Are they closet muslims?

Lost_BMW

12,955 posts

59 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
Countdown said:
Jessicus said:
Again, you're trying to provide a justification for these beasts, rather than condemnation.


I've recommended castration for the perpetrators and public humiliation for their "nearest and dearest" But you don't think that's condemnation?
Softie!
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Jessicus

309 posts

29 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
Countdown said:
Jessicus said:
Again, you're trying to provide a justification for these beasts, rather than condemnation.
I've recommended castration for the perpetrators and public humiliation for their "nearest and dearest" But you don't think that's condemnation?

With regards to my response to Mr_B, trying to suggest why this happened specifically to young white girls in care is not justification for it happening.

Jessicus said:
We're probably quite close in thinking to do with these criminals, but your stubborn refusal to acknowledge that there is a particular problem with Pakistani Muslims and their approach to non-Muslims is really quite strange.
Your fixation that this particular crime is a result of the attitudes of muslims to non-muslims is quite strange. I've lost count of the number of times I've explained that things such as alcohol, drugs, and extra-marital sex are severely frowned upon in Islam. But you seem absolutely determined to prove a causal link.

I gave a link earlier where there was a group of predominantly white men who were involved in this type of crime. Are they closet muslims?
I'm starting to reassess my opinion of your intelligence.

You appear to be wilfully refusing to acknowledge the fact that the majority of these rape gangs were comprised of Pakistani Muslims. Is it the case that you don't believe that they were Pakistani Muslims?

It's how the men involved reference THEMSELVES.

These groups of men specifically target young, vulnerable white girls, and systematically abuse them including sexual abuse and rape over a period of months or years.

When caught, they reference the girls as "slags, wes and prostitutes" despite the fact that they are mostly 12-15 years old. They claim that "infidels teach their daughters about sex" - note the word infidels.

Obviously, there is no direct link between rape gangs and muslims. However there are a disproportionate number of Pakistani Muslims who have been convicted of child sex offenses, based upon their overall numbers in the UK

The question is why. Several theories have been put forward, to do with everything from availability in their places of work, to the fact that they are unable to deal with women as equals and radical influences from their religion about subjugating other races.

Yes, the officials can arrest those stupid enough to commit the crime and be caught, however if there is a common link that could be found and dealt with, wouldn't that be a good idea?

And you don't get that by denying the problem. A crime carried out disproportionally by a particular section of society.

Countdown

9,504 posts

79 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
Jessicus said:
I'm starting to reassess my opinion of your intelligence.
If you must

Jessicus said:
You appear to be wilfully refusing to acknowledge the fact that the majority of these rape gangs were comprised of Pakistani Muslims. Is it the case that you don't believe that they were Pakistani Muslims?
I'm starting to reassess your reading skills. Or please point me to where I have suggested these grooming gangs weren't nominally muslim or of Pakistani origin.

Jessicus said:
These groups of men specifically target young, vulnerable white girls, and systematically abuse them including sexual abuse and rape over a period of months or years.
I know. Beacuse young vulnerable girls are their easiest prey.

Jessicus said:
They claim that "infidels teach their daughters about sex" - note the word infidels.
I've not read that previously. Do you have any links for it?

Jessicus said:
Obviously, there is no direct link between rape gangs and muslims. However there are a disproportionate number of Pakistani Muslims who have been convicted of child sex offenses, based upon their overall numbers in the UK
I think overrepresentation is specifically in this particular type of offence (rather than child sex offences in general). The "overall" representation of asian child offenders is broadly in proportion to the number of asians in the general population.

Jessicus said:
And you don't get that by denying the problem. A crime carried out disproportionally by a particular section of society.
I'm not denying the problem (ie asian men grooming underage girls). What Im refuting is the suggestion that this has anything to do with Islam.

hifihigh

448 posts

84 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
Jessicus said:
I'm starting to reassess my opinion of your intelligence.

You appear to be wilfully refusing to acknowledge the fact that the majority of these rape gangs were comprised of Pakistani Muslims. Is it the case that you don't believe that they were Pakistani Muslims?
[quote] plenty of these rape gangs exist,but only a certain amount gets reported on.[quote/}
It's how the men involved reference THEMSELVES.

These groups of men specifically target young, vulnerable white girls, and systematically abuse them including sexual abuse and rape over a period of months or years.
[Why do you pick on their skin colour. They are vulnerable women no matter how you frame it.

When caught, they reference the girls as "slags, wes and prostitutes" despite the fact that they are mostly 12-15 years old. They claim that "infidels teach their daughters about sex" - note the word infidels.

Obviously, there is no direct link between rape gangs and muslims. However there are a disproportionate number of Pakistani Muslims who have been convicted of child sex offenses, based upon their overall numbers in the UK

The question is why. Several theories have been put forward, to do with everything from availability in their places of work, to the fact that they are unable to deal with women as equals and radical influences from their religion about subjugating other races.

Yes, the officials can arrest those stupid enough to commit the crime and be caught, however if there is a common link that could be found and dealt with, wouldn't that be a good idea?

And you don't get that by denying the problem. A crime carried out disproportionally by a particular section of society.

Jessicus

309 posts

29 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
Countdown said:
I'm starting to reassess your reading skills. Or please point me to where I have suggested these grooming gangs weren't nominally muslim or of Pakistani origin.
Countdown said:
I'm not denying the problem (ie asian men grooming underage girls). What Im refuting is the suggestion that this has anything to do with Islam.
So, they are muslims, but nothing to do with Islam?

Some gang members told the court the girls were willing participants, and happy having sex with the men. Their ring-leader, 59-year-old Shabir Ahmed, claimed the girls were "prostitutes" who had been running a "business empire" and it was all "white lies". He shouted in court, "Where are the white people? You have only got my kind here." Shabir Ahmed's threatening behaviour and calling Judge Gerald Clifton a "racist bd" resulted in his being banned from the court for the sentencing hearing. The Judge described this outburst as "nonsense" and explained that their present predicament was due to their "lust and greed".Judge Clifton told the convicted gang members: "All of you treated your victims as though they were worthless and beyond any respect – they were not part of your community or religion."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochdale_sex_traffick...

Not part of your community or religion. Pretty clear to me.

That's it from me on this one - there's obviously no way that you can be persuaded that your "brothers" are in any way at fault. It's all the fault of the victims, obviously.

After all, Islam is the religion of peace, isn't it? Oh wait...

Countdown

9,504 posts

79 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
Jessicus said:
Countdown said:
I'm starting to reassess your reading skills. Or please point me to where I have suggested these grooming gangs weren't nominally muslim or of Pakistani origin.
Countdown said:
I'm not denying the problem (ie asian men grooming underage girls). What Im refuting is the suggestion that this has anything to do with Islam.
So, they are muslims, but nothing to do with Islam?
Them being nominally Muslims does not mean they committed the crime BECAUSE they were (or are) Muslims. And I use the word "nominally" because, whilst they may come from a Muslim background, they're actions couldn't be less "Muslim" if they'd tried. I've referred to the extra-marital sex, the use of alcohol and the use of druds to emphasise this but you just keep ignoring that part.

Did you find any evidence to show that any of them had referred to "infidels teaching their daughters sex?"


Countdown

9,504 posts

79 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
Jessicus said:
That's it from me on this one - there's obviously no way that you can be persuaded that your "brothers" are in any way at fault. It's all the fault of the victims, obviously.
They're not my brothers, they are completely guilty, and it's completely their fault. I've said it numerous times. Go back through my postings and show me a single post where I've suggested otherwise. The only thing Is that for some reason you seem to be ABSOLUTELY determined to link this to Islam.

Jessicus said:
After all, Islam is the religion of peace, isn't it? Oh wait...
Yes, alright then. Any crime committed by a muslim, no matter how trivial or serious, is because of Islam. If they're not Muslims then it's irrelevant. But if they're Muslim it's Islam that's to blame.

Mermaid

16,948 posts

54 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
The Pakistani community will not shop their own, fear of that may have made an impact.

MK Ultra

98 posts

32 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
Mermaid said:
The Pakistani community will not shop their own, fear of that may have made an impact.
Absolutely not true. I've stayed quiet on this topic but I did my part to help the police finding wanted men involved in this st.

Ask DCI Ward (don't know if I should be brandishing his full name on the internet)of G.M.P how many Pakistanis were forthcoming and helping in the police investigation.

A lot of people on this thread have a view that Pakistani Muslims don't see this as an issue etc, but the reality is we condone this just as much as anybody else. In fact we are more concerned by this because these people are so called "Muslims". Just because these men call themselves Muslims, doesn't mean that this is what Islam preaches.

Countdown- Some people just cant be convinced that some of us, as Muslims would prefer to live peacefully and decently in society. We are not out to gang rape people because they are different to us, and that our religion is racist and targets infidels and crap like that.



Mojocvh

14,620 posts

145 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
"A lot of people on this thread have a view that Pakistani Muslims don't see this as an issue"

We know that, it's patently obvious; but what about the British arm of the sect?

There is an English saying, I do hesitate to use this as some clown will misquote it here, however, in respect to these crimes, you are now collectively "tarred with the same brush" like it or not.

It is up to the British muslims to now prove that that this is not the case.





Edited by Mojocvh on Saturday 13th October 08:09

Mermaid

16,948 posts

54 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
MK Ultra said:
Absolutely not true. I've stayed quiet on this topic but I did my part to help the police finding wanted men involved in this st.

Ask DCI Ward (don't know if I should be brandishing his full name on the internet)of G.M.P how many Pakistanis were forthcoming and helping in the police investigation.

A lot of people on this thread have a view that Pakistani Muslims don't see this as an issue etc, but the reality is we condone this just as much as anybody else. In fact we are more concerned by this because these people are so called "Muslims". Just because these men call themselves Muslims, doesn't mean that this is what Islam preaches.
And that is exactly what I have been saying - decent Pakistani Muslims have the most to lose from the activities of the rotten fringe, for as you peel the onion, what you get inside is so much different.

Top marks to you & others who have helped inquiries, takes courage. But really needs to be done on a wider scale to help improve the image of that community.

Guam

20,977 posts

151 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
MK Ultra said:
Absolutely not true. I've stayed quiet on this topic but I did my part to help the police finding wanted men involved in this st.

Ask DCI Ward (don't know if I should be brandishing his full name on the internet)of G.M.P how many Pakistanis were forthcoming and helping in the police investigation.

A lot of people on this thread have a view that Pakistani Muslims don't see this as an issue etc, but the reality is we condone this just as much as anybody else. In fact we are more concerned by this because these people are so called "Muslims". Just because these men call themselves Muslims, doesn't mean that this is what Islam preaches.

Countdown- Some people just cant be convinced that some of us, as Muslims would prefer to live peacefully and decently in society. We are not out to gang rape people because they are different to us, and that our religion is racist and targets infidels and crap like that.

I have to concur with you and countdown on this, its like saying that Jimmy Saville committed child abuse because he was catholic or that being a catholic priest in and of itself makes you more prone to kiddy fiddling, or that Catholicism approves of peadophillia?


Cheers

Mermaid

16,948 posts

54 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
Guam said:
I have to concur with you and countdown on this, its like saying that Jimmy Saville committed child abuse because he was catholic or that being a catholic priest in and of itself makes you more prone to kiddy fiddling, or that Catholicism approves of peadophillia?


Cheers
How about JS did what he did because he could , religion plays no part in both cases.

Guam

20,977 posts

151 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
Mermaid said:
How about JS did what he did because he could , religion plays no part in both cases.
I agree, in both cases those involved were despicable scum, the ONLY difference is the apparrent race element. however I think thats largely a red herring, I doubt that if these guys had easy access to Asian children these scumbags would have behaved any differently.

Indeed for all we know there may be victims within their community but there may be a cultural issue in preventing those girls coming forward to report it.

Cheers

eccles

8,454 posts

105 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
Mojocvh said:
"A lot of people on this thread have a view that Pakistani Muslims don't see this as an issue"

We know that, it's patently obvious; but what about the British arm of the sect?

There is an English saying, I do hesitate to use this as some clown will misquote it here, however, in respect to these crimes, you are now collectively "tarred with the same brush" like it or not.

It is up to the British muslims to now prove that that this is not the case.
It's a shame you're saying that British Muslims now have to prove they're not the same as those convicted.
How about, instead, putting pressure on the media to have balanced reporting. It's rare you see positive news in the press about Muslims, and yet I've no doubt they do good things for charity and help others etc.
Imagine if the only press white christians got was BNP rallies or the anti globalisation rallies where they wreck everything, that wouldn't paint them in a good light.
Sadly the media concentrate on the tiny, but very vocal minority, and then they all get tarred with the same brush by the ignorant.

rover 623gsi

2,251 posts

44 months

[news] 
Tuesday 23rd October 2012 quote quote all
latest cases

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-20...

Nine men have been charged with sexual offences against a single teenage girl in Rochdale.

The men, aged between 26 and 39, were arrested in May as a result of an inquiry into the sexual exploitation of a teenage girl since 2005.

All of the accused, apart from two, will appear in a series of separate hearings from 7 November to 6 December at Bury Magistrates' Court.

The men have all been remanded on bail, Greater Manchester Police said
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